44-77 Tight Chamber?

[Griff]

I'm getting close to deciding to just skip grease groove bullets as an "intermediate stage" for this rifle. I had hoped to get going in familiar territory, then step into paper patch, but since this is a little bit of a struggle, I may just go ahead and skip ahead to loading and shooting paper patch. I'm not quite there yet, but close.

As an answer to some earlier questions, I fireformed a few cases. These cases had been previously annealed in the neck area. They were sized with the 43 Mauser dies then primed. I added five grains of Unique and filled the case with cornmeal, putting a lube wad at the case mouth to hold everything in place. I've actually not used this method of fireforming before. I hope that the developed enough pressure to fully form the cases.

After firing, I took the following measurements. Again, I am using calipers, so I don't feel that it is as accurate as if I had the right kind of micrometer, although I confirmed the outside diameters with a micrometer. There was some slight variation too, but these measurements are pretty close:

Case mouth:

Sized, before fireforming: ID: .439", OD: .463"
After fireforming: ID .446", OD: .468"

In the picture, the case on the left has been sized, but not fireformed. The case on the right is one of the fireformed cases. Obviously the shoulder is shaped a little differently too.

I'd like to be able to load either type of bullets in this rifle, although I suspect that it will mostly be paper patch once I learn the process and have the supplies.

Again, thanks for the advice (and scolding) that I've received here!

Griff

[Kurt]

Griff,

I just went through 500 .30-40 Krag cases forming them for my .38-50 Remington Hepburn and I started with 8 grains of unique loaded in annealed cases filled with Corn meal or Cream of Wheat and capped the case mouth with lube and I found the 8 grains was not enough so I upped it to 12 grains and this was satisfactory for me with the results. I trimmed the cases .015" long and fried them with a full load of black powder with a PP bullet and trimmed them to the correct length of my chamber cast from the front of the rim to the chamber end.
The case on the left is the second load fired with a full load.
The center case was the first shot with 12 gr of unique and corn meal.
The third on the right I shot with corn meal in the .40-70 after the first shot in the .38-50 to keep it the full length with corn meal and unique. You can still see the first firing in the .38-50. I wanted a case full length. I did firearm one .30-40 Krag case in the .40-70 and it turned put smooth. I don't have a photo of that case.
From the measurements I would not turn those case mouths till you fire them a couple times more and then just to uniform the necks if you feel it's necessary for the accuracy you're looking for.

I have had the opportunity to measure original .44 grooved bullets cast for the .44-77 and they were bore diameter with no "bore riding portion", not groove diameter and they shot just as well as the PP bullets at bore diameter.

IMG_0576.jpeg

IMG_0581.jpeg

ideal-reloading tool.jpg

[Kurt]

Here is the final product.

IMG_0987.jpeg

[bobw]

Sounds like a standard chamber with 7 * leade. They should be chamfered on the inside and out. Bump up your fireform charge as Kurt suggest on a few and check your measurements again.

[Kurt]

Bob,

I wouldn't even use corn meal in his forming. I would just make the bullet fit the case and chamber with a BP load and shoot.
They would come out fully formed to his chamber. Just don't get the bullet too tight in the case mouth because it will stretch the case from the shoulder forward if the case is too soft from annealing. I went through that forming .44-90 BN cases from .44 basic 3-1/4" brass and I pulled a couple necks doing that.
A PP bullet would be best for this work.

[Distant Thunder]

Agree with Kurt about this. I couldn't get my .44-77 to fill out until I used black powder. I found bore diameter PP bullets to be the easiest to load because I didn't have to worry about neck ID with them.

Just fill the case up into the neck, seat a LDPE wad on the powder and seat the bullets on the wad. Don't worry about overall length, just shoot them. No pressure worries, no pulled necks, just nice fireformed cases after cleaning. In the end it's the best way.

[Don McDowell]

434 diameter bullet wrapped in sc 55 w over a case full of black will finish the fire forming and shot just fine

[bobw]

Bob,

I wouldn't even use corn meal in his forming. I would just make the bullet fit the case and chamber with a BP load and shoot.
They would come out fully formed to his chamber. Just don't get the bullet too tight in the case mouth because it will stretch the case from the shoulder forward if the case is too soft from annealing. I went through that forming .44-90 BN cases from .44 basic 3-1/4" brass and I pulled a couple necks doing that.
A PP bullet would be best for this work.

Yup Kurt that is what I would do too, but I have .432 ppb's and patch paper. I got the idea from griff he don't have a ppb mold yet. Bobw

[Kurt]

Griff,

How far are you from the NW corner of Illinois?

[Griff]

Yup Kurt that is what I would do too, but I have .432 ppb's and patch paper. I got the idea from griff he don't have a ppb mold yet. Bobw

That is correct. I don't have a PPB mold. I'm willing to buy one, but being fairly ignorant about them, I struggle with which design and specifications to order. I can't afford to buy too many at this point. That's part of why I was trying to start off with what I'm more familiar with before venturing further into the unknown.

Griff,

How far are you from the NW corner of Illinois?

Sadly, Kurt, that part of Illinois is about a 2000 mile drive from here. I might find some shortcuts and get it down to 1950 miles or so.

I don't mind the challenge, gents. Working on this is kind of enjoyable. So far anyway. I'm getting there.

Griff

[art ruggiero]

i use a 45acp sizer die to just tighten the neck of my 44/77 shoots great art

[Don McDowell]

Griff my offer still stands
I’m almost wondering if either Baco sent you 44 Spanish brass or lee mismarked those dies
The 43 Mauser dies I have work great. I have 43 Spanish dies and they do indeed size the necks down to use a 438 diameter bullet
I always get a chuckle when folks have the same experience as I did when that very first 44-77 case pops out of the chamber not looking a whole lot like the gentle slope shouldered thing that went in
Sorta like fireforming ackleys

[Griff]

I took the five pieces of brass that I had previously shot with Unique and cornmeal, loaded them again with 12 grains of Unique, and cornmeal. After firing them, their dimensions had not changed appreciably. They are probably not fully fireformed, but I bet that they are pretty close. The empty cases enter the chamber with just a little resistance.

I'm still working the problem and enjoying the process.

Don, I'll be in touch.

Griff

[Don McDowell]

Looking forward to it

[Griff]

I did a little experimenting today to see if I could narrow down some of the issues that I'm having. Keep in mind that I don't have tons of tools on hand and I'm certainly not a machinist, so I was making do with what I have at the moment. I sized a case in my 43 Mauser die and (as expected) it fit into the chamber of my rifle. I then loaded one of my .446 grease groove bullets and (as expected) it no longer fit. I was able to use a case holder from an old Lee hand case trimmer to hold the dummy cartridge and chuck it in a drill. Spinning the dummy cartridge, I used sandpaper to thin the case neck by about .002. At that point, the dummy cartridge fit into the chamber. Just to be certain, I pulled that bullet, resized the case and seated a new .446 bullet. The new dummy cartridge still fit the chamber. I then pullet that bullet, primed and loaded the case with 1 1/2 Fg. OE powder. I put a cardboard wad under the bullet. The cartridge loaded, fired and extracted as expected. I then reloaded the same case two more times and each time it worked. I haven't sighted in the gun, of course, but I was hitting a large steel plate at 50 yards off-hand at my home range. There was a certain amount of drag in loading the cartridges into the rifle; I suspect that thinning the case necks a touch more would take care of that, if needed. My method was tedious and imprecise, but it served to answer some questions.

My goal had always been to be able to shoot both grease groove and paper patch bullets in this rifle. I'm planning to order a case neck turner and turn some of my cases for grease groove bullets, saving the rest for paper patch. Now that I can actually shoot the gun, I'm looking forward to learning paper patching. I don't know yet, but I suspect that I'll eventually load mostly paper patch bullets in the future, but I like having options.

Thanks again, gents!

Griff