The mechanics of Paper Rings

Discussions of powders, bullets and loading information.

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semtav
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Re: The mechanics of Paper Rings

Post by semtav »

Kurt wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:22 am KW,

The only way you're going to eliminate those paper rings is by eliminating that 45º wall at your chambers end.


Kurt
Since the transition area is where the the rings are forming, and some with 45* transitions are claiming they get no rings, What other ways are there to eliminate the rings besides shallow transition or long cases/

Reading this thread, I'm starting to wonder

One person claims no rings if very shallow seated,
Another claims No rings that uses a 1/8 felt wad.

So what are the ways one can get the base past the transition before the full expansion.

shallower seated?
felt cushion?
softer primer?
harder bullet?
slower powder?
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powderburner
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Re: The mechanics of Paper Rings

Post by powderburner »

I can create a paper ring at will. If I use 2 or 3F powder with my alloy which is 70-1
If I use goex 1F I completely eliminate them.
This is what works for me. Does it work for every ctg. No. I had to do different things to get them to stop in the 40-70 ss. So its not 100% easy to difinitatively say what exactly the cause and what is the exactly the fix. Obviously many things work. And there are plenty of causes.
Dean Becker
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kwilliams
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Re: The mechanics of Paper Rings

Post by kwilliams »

70:1 is that correct? That is soft!
kw
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powderburner
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Re: The mechanics of Paper Rings

Post by powderburner »

That is correct. It is soft. It’s my alloy for my 2&7/8. @500 & 540 gn. The 1F seems to move the bullet across the transition before bumping up.
The load also uses ya grease cookie which probably softens the impact on the bullet. Recovered bullets show no base deformation.
Dean Becker
only one gun and they are 74 s
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MYWEIGH scale merchant
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Blackstone
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Re: The mechanics of Paper Rings

Post by Blackstone »

powderburner wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:41 am That is correct. It is soft. It’s my alloy for my 2&7/8. @500 & 540 gn. The 1F seems to move the bullet across the transition before bumping up.
The load also uses ya grease cookie which probably softens the impact on the bullet. Recovered bullets show no base deformation.
I use pure lead sometimes and 40 & 50-1. Just shot at 1000 yds at Camp Atterbrey Indiana with a 45 2 7/8 535 gr 40-1 ppb 115 gr 1f swiss and came in 4th
Blackstone
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Re: The mechanics of Paper Rings

Post by Blackstone »

kwilliams wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:31 am Yesterday made up a 10 plus to 1 alloy mix and then shot some rounds. Every case still had a paper ring even with these harder DD PP bullets. Other than breaking the 45 deg. chamber chamfer to something less I do not know what else to try. My cases are as long as can be.
The harder slugs do offer up more apparent recoil.
kw
I had this exact same problem. My cases were as long as they could be , every one cutting rings . I cut .008 off no more rings and I use soft lead
kwilliams
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Re: The mechanics of Paper Rings

Post by kwilliams »

I would think that the 40-1 or 50-1 etc would have severe nose slump. That phenomena has been discussed here and I have always tried to avoid it by using at least 16-1. Maybe I am all wrong and need to try some really soft alloy and give it a try.
kw
Blackstone
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Re: The mechanics of Paper Rings

Post by Blackstone »

kwilliams wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:15 am I would think that the 40-1 or 50-1 etc would have severe nose slump. That phenomena has been discussed here and I have always tried to avoid it by using at least 16-1. Maybe I am all wrong and need to try some really soft alloy and give it a try.
kw
I've tried up to 20-1 but I can't get them to shoot 30-1 shoots ok but 40-1 I'd where they really begin to shine but I'm shooting original shaped bullets they have a big nose that doesn't slump
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Don McDowell
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Re: The mechanics of Paper Rings

Post by Don McDowell »

Is anybody really sure that those nasty paper rings are a problem when it comes to accuracy?
I have seen my targets come up many times with the spotting disc in the black, and had many a paper ring rolling around on the mat, with the shot disc in the 10 and x ring. The rifle I was shooting to take first place in the Dean Scoggins Memorial 1000 yard match will spit a paper ring back at you with just about every shot.
There's a gawd awful lot of stuff going on well above the line of sight of the shooter and spotter, and in many places the bullet arc is well above the range flags.
Usually a "bad" shot can be traced back to a subtle shift in the wind, did you account for the second or 3rd wave of mirage, and are you sure you were in position with the sights settled before you yanked on that trigger. Is the bullet just a touch long for the rifling twist and velocity? Could there have been a small void in the bullet when cast, and are we sure the base was perfectly formed when cast? But one has to take an honest hard look and not blame it all on something that may be totally innocent.
And no 7 degree leads, and softer bullets don't always cure the paper ring conundrum.
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?
opencountry
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Re: The mechanics of Paper Rings

Post by opencountry »

Blackstone wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:56 pm
powderburner wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:41 am That is correct. It is soft. It’s my alloy for my 2&7/8. @500 & 540 gn. The 1F seems to move the bullet across the transition before bumping up.
The load also uses ya grease cookie which probably softens the impact on the bullet. Recovered bullets show no base deformation.
I use pure lead sometimes and 40 & 50-1. Just shot at 1000 yds at Camp Atterbrey Indiana with a 45 2 7/8 535 gr 40-1 ppb 115 gr 1f swiss and came in 4th
Congratulations on your ppb shooting.
For what it's worth I have factory Shiloh chambers on my 110's, and my 90. I shoot strictly pp. I keep the 110's cases trimmed to 2.875", and my 90 to 2.4"; I watch this closely, in fact after each firing. I anneal the last @1/4" of the cases mouths after each firing. I've read on this forum that many pp-shooters crimp the case mouth slightly to hold the patched bullet in place. Myself, I use a Meacham neck-sizing die that has a number of different sized interchangeable 'collets' or 'buttons'. I size about 1/8" of the case neck to hold the patched bullet. It's what I started with, and it works quite well.
My loads are 'stiff'. I've always used Goex powder, but I'm finding the Swiss loads are producing the same accuracy as the Goex loads, and at the very same powder weights. The rifles, and their loads, are honestly better than my shooting abilities.

Robert
Beware of the man that owns one rifle.
ian45662
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Re: The mechanics of Paper Rings

Post by ian45662 »

I shot another match with the brass that is about .008”
Short of my chamber. I used LDPE wads and was getting poly rings but no paper rings, unlike at friendship a few weeks ago where I was using brass that was right at the end of my chamber (and some was a little past). I was getting some major paper rings at friendship and
Was having major accuracy issues from the brass that was to Long. Second match with this shorter brass and it is shooting it very well with no paper rings. That is just my experience so far with this little 38-50
martinibelgian
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Re: The mechanics of Paper Rings

Post by martinibelgian »

I always wondered about the ' paper ring obsession'. Yes, I have them too, no I don't care about it as it doesn't impact accuracy nor produce leading or have any negative effect whatsoever. So I won't spend any energy trying to eliminate them, just wasted effort. Wth the limited shooting time I have, I prefer to put my energy in more useful things, like load development and - especially - trigger time.
ian45662
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Re: The mechanics of Paper Rings

Post by ian45662 »

martinibelgian wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:55 am I always wondered about the ' paper ring obsession'. Yes, I have them too, no I don't care about it as it doesn't impact accuracy nor produce leading or have any negative effect whatsoever. So I won't spend any energy trying to eliminate them, just wasted effort. Wth the limited shooting time I have, I prefer to put my energy in more useful things, like load development and - especially - trigger time.
That’s pretty much where I’m at. If I had them and accuracy was still good then I just wouldn’t worry about it but at friendship accuracy wasn’t good at all and that was because the cases were going up into the 45 degree transition and that was giving me great big paper rings. I suspect the cases were pinching off the paper
martinibelgian
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Re: The mechanics of Paper Rings

Post by martinibelgian »

Brass stretches upon firing - also lengthwise. So if it stretches into the transition, yes, it will 'pinch' the bullet, with a negative effect, GG or PP.
Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: The mechanics of Paper Rings

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Gentlemen, fellow shooters. Those who are on the quest of knowledge.

X- unknown Quantity.
Spurt- a drip under pressure.

I have watched this thread with interest.

I submit to you my past experiences these past 3 weeks or so.

We have fired approximately 220 rounds of PP in several matches these past few weeks, my Traditional Creedmoor Match, and the BPTRA Creedmoor Nationals. My observations were thus, absolutely no paper rings. :shock: :shock: :shock: My Shiloh 45-110 25# rifle was used for these matches. It has the standard chamber :shock: that some X-perts claim is death to fine accuracy and is the cause of all our woes in paper rings.

I submit this, for there to be paper rings there must be space for the paper to move into? :shock:

My cases are trimmed to 2.880 :shock: right to the chamber stop.

My cases are annealed every other firing. :shock:

I use 14-1 Alloy :shock:

I use my tried and proven Wad Stack, :shock: said by many to be not worthwhile.

I run 103 to 110 grs of 1.5 or 1 FG powder. This past month it was 103 grs of Olde Eynsford 1.5.

In 230 shots I had 2 paper rings both at my match, one resulted in an outer and the other a Bullseye. The bull was at 1000 yards. At the BPTRA Nationals zero paper rings. :shock: :shock:

Facts:

In the original Creedmoor Era pure lead or very low tin alloy were not used with PP in target Rifle competition. Perry’s account of the 1879 Match lists the softest alloy used at 14-1. :shock:
Soft alloy isn’t the answer. Before anyone wishes to argue that point, gather up your National Championship medals, first. Then we can talk, I been shooting PP in competition since 2007.

Conditions and the proper interpretations of them are a much more worthwhile endeavor to engage in conversation. This past weekend I had 13.5 MOA of right of my no wind zero on several occasions, :shock: :shock: :shock: get out of your eastern wind tunnels come west and shoot in some conditions.

A soft alloy bullet will look like a wad cutter at the exit of the barrel, and in any real conditions with perform poorly. Come west prove me wrong.

The top two performing bullets at my match, were Cast at least 15-1 or harder!!! :shock: :shock: That includes the mile target in some tough conditions. 18-20 MOA of right, of the spindrift compensation at one mile, if you don’t know what that is then refrain from commenting because you ain’t got a clue.

The biggest bugaboo is my fouling control regime for paper patch, in that it’s very time consuming. And makes fast follow up shots impossible. Especially in a 15 shot short time 1000 yard string of fire.

Warm and very dry conditions on the high plains requires extreme measures, again if you’re not doing it then refrain from comments, you ain’t got a clue. I am talking RH below 17%.

I had what I call a rookie mistake let my Gullo wipes dry out, on the 900 day two, this cost me several low misses. :shock:

The conditions this past weekend are shown in the scores, it was very challenging.



Make your cases to fit your chamber perfectly, anneal often, :shock: so you get that perfect radial expansion of the case neck. :shock:

I will go to using two Gullo wipes then just two dry patches for fouling control, if this isn’t successful I am going back to the tried and proven Greaser. The old timers didn’t shoot under tight time restrictions, and could watch fellows ahead of them before time to shoot again. :shock: :shock: and they never shot out west. :shock:

Kenny Wasserburger.

Recovered bullets from a mile give some interesting feedback and information :shock: :shock:.

Something that almost no one has access to that kind of feedback.

See you at the 2023 warmup for the 2024 150th anniversary of Traditional Creedmoor Matches, no faux paper, no position restrictions, Shoot in turn on Steel :shock:.
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
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