Help with 1863 Cartridge Conversion

Ask Shiloh questions about your Shiloh Sharps Rifle.

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bobw
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Re: Help with 1863 Cartridge Conversion

Post by bobw »

Jay take a well soaked patch with KRoil and get the whole inside of the outfit wet with KRoil and let set horizontally for a day then flip it over for a day. Use a dry patched rod on it and see what comes out of it. Never know might be a lot of crud in the end of chamber.. bobw
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George Babits
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Re: Help with 1863 Cartridge Conversion

Post by George Babits »

Bob & Jay; I wonder if there isn't a case neck stuck in the forward part of the chamber? That might make it look like a bottle necked chambering. Hopefully it is just a lot of crud and neither a part of a stuck case or deep pile of rust.

George
bobw
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Re: Help with 1863 Cartridge Conversion

Post by bobw »

Need to remember it's 140+ years old inside probably don't look any better than the out side. Don't even pull anymore patina on the outside off. You said earlier that the barrel was loose in the action? Bobw
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powderburner
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Re: Help with 1863 Cartridge Conversion

Post by powderburner »

Sounds like it’s time to make a chamber cast or dig up a borescope
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bohemianway
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Re: Help with 1863 Cartridge Conversion

Post by bohemianway »

I suspect that the barrel is not a genuine Sharp's but a Meachem or other after market. THis is due to the caliber stamping style, The general configuration of the action and barrel. I have seem many barrels similar to this on conversions that had non-Sharp's rifling but the Bridgeport address and/or the Old Reliable with/w/o the border likely the original stamp or remade stamp used by the rifle assembler. The actual Sharp's made conversion rifles were very well done at least those in the 159,000 serial range.

Have you removed the fore-end and looked for markings? Typically original and original replacement barrels are serialized.

Charles
George Babits
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Re: Help with 1863 Cartridge Conversion

Post by George Babits »

Charles,
My Meacham has the caliber marked very differently and on the top flat. This appears to be a Sharps "assembled" rifle. The caliber markings are the much like those on my 40-70 SS. A Meacham will have "English" Henry type rifling. The failing Sharps company was accepting and rebarreling many carbines at the tail end and this, like my 40-70 SS, is probably one of them. If you look at Marcot's Sharps volume 3 you will see ths.

George
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Re: Help with 1863 Cartridge Conversion

Post by BP-Jay »

Thanks for the help and patience! After some more cleaning I did discover that there is a part of a case stuck in the chamber right next to the rifling. That was a good call! That was definitely confusing me.

As I mentioned earlier, I think the best thing I can do now is get this in the hands of a good gunsmith who is familiar with Sharps. Look at the attached pic and how much room there is around the base of the case when it is in the chamber. Has that been modified or is that normal? I think a barrel relining may fix many issues here and get this gun working again.

When I mentioned the barrel was lose it really just needs another 1/4” turn passed where it lines up to be tight. I was assuming this would be an easy/common fix, but I really don’t know.

I will post an update as soon as I have a chance to get an opinion on the rifle.

Thanks again!
Jay
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bobw
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Re: Help with 1863 Cartridge Conversion

Post by bobw »

That barrel allready looks relined and tightening up another 1/4 turn isn't the answer as that puts the extractor cut out of position. If it had been converted by Sharps it wouldn't have these problems. I believe from your pictures you have a poorly assembled parts gun. It needs massive repairs just to make functionable. Buy a new shiloh. Bobw
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Re: Help with 1863 Cartridge Conversion

Post by BP-Jay »

That's what I was afraid of as I was getting more into this last night...that it was more of a backyard conversions so to speak. I do have better Shilohs and as I mentioned I am buying a new Shiloh, in 40-70ss that went into production a few months ago. I was just hoping to get this one to a better place....

I have done some similar things with Parker shotguns made around the same time(1870s). I sometimes use the term "saving" a gun and I know it is never the smartest thing from a cost perspective, but there is a satisfaction in bringing a gun back from neglect. Usually it is fixing what is broke, but leaving things as original as possible. I have "saved" some shotguns that were thought gone for good including having Damascus barrels welded where there where cracks and those guns are now very usable and guns I am proud of. There is a great feeling when you get one of these back into the field.
George Babits
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Re: Help with 1863 Cartridge Conversion

Post by George Babits »

I'd say it has been sleeved too, but wonder why the cut for the rim was done so much larger than the 45-70? That looks like about the rim size for the 50-70. As Bob said, probably more money/trouble than it would be worth. Still, the challenge of putting an original back into shooting condition is always a rewarding experience. Been there and done that. I wonder if the sleeve could be removed and replaced with a good one. I'd bet that could be done by someone who knows what they are doing. Maybe John Taylor. Bob may have a better idea of who micht be able to do the work.

I've been lucky. Both of my conversions and carbines have very good bores so I have been able to shoot them without having to deal with re-boring or sleeving.

George
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kenny sd
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Re: Help with 1863 Cartridge Conversion

Post by kenny sd »

anything and I mean Anything you do to a 150 yr old sharps will hurt it's value. clean it up, order a Shiloh and enjoy both.
here is my 40 70 SS original Sharps Bridgeport and..
the Shiloh I had made to duplicate it. added a little, but gun is new and safe.
Ken
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George Babits
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Re: Help with 1863 Cartridge Conversion

Post by George Babits »

you are wrong Kenny! Might be right if you have a very minty Sharps, but not for the beat up ones most of us have. The original posting was an excellent example of a beater that could be raised from the dead. Might not be as pretty as a pristing Sharps, or a brand new Shiloh, but can be made into a very servicable rifle. All of us aren't blessed with a huge bankroll! None of my Sharps rifles cost me as much as a new Shiloh. I do have several Shiloh rifles as well and certainly shoot them a little more often than the originals. There is a certain magic feeling you get when you shoot an original.

George
bobw
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Re: Help with 1863 Cartridge Conversion

Post by bobw »

No George, you are out to lunch here. This isn't 1968 when you bought yours for $125 and got your repairs for next to nothing. This is 2022 original parts are either damned expensive or non existent. Gunsmiths talented enough to do the work are greatly reduced in numbers and are backed up in work for years. It's obvious you aren't current on how much their services are worth either. The OP's gun would require $1500 + just to make serviceable and safe if it could be, never mind restoration. Buying a new reproduction would be far smarter. Antiques grow in value when un messed with and shilohs lose very little value when taken care of. Pull your head out and quit living in the past. Bobw
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George Babits
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Re: Help with 1863 Cartridge Conversion

Post by George Babits »

That $120 Sharps got sold many years ago. My 40-70 SS Sharps cost $3000 when I got it 3 or 4 years ago. It required nothing but cleaning, dies, and a mould to get it shooting. I'm well awaye of what reboring and sleeving costs these days. I don't think the Jay ever said what he paid for that rifle. If all it needs is barrel work and all else is functional, I'd guess about half your $1500 to make it servicable. For me things don't have to be perfect, they just have to be safe and work.

George
bobw
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Re: Help with 1863 Cartridge Conversion

Post by bobw »

That's inconsequential George, whatever he paid + what it would cost to make serviceable and safe he could have a nice shiloh. That is ready to go instead of devaluing a antique that still might not be safe. Buy a new shiloh leave that original as is, it has more value as an antique. I believe the OP said he was going to spend the money to have a qualified gunsmith give it a check to see what it all needs. That should answer the obvious...bobw
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