Shortening barrel for offhand shooting

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SchuetzenDave
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Re: Shortening barrel for offhand shooting

Post by SchuetzenDave »

Best success would be to change the stock to a Schuetzen style.

Unfortunately the Silhouette rules state you must have the rifle's original style stock to compete in competitions.

In Schuetzen competitions over the years I have found a heavier barrel will drop straight down over the target whereas lighter barrels start wavering in a figure eight pattern.

Best improvements for offhand practice is learning how to shoot offhand as opposed to trying to modify your firearm.

Best trick for offhand shooting is close your eyes, then open them to see where your rife is pointed.
Then move your feet to adjust your point of aim.
Most people move their position by moving their arms but this then results in muscle tension while holding the rifle that causes movement at the time of shot.
Retrain your self to hold the rifle properly so you do not incorporate muscle tension when holding the rifle.

A heavier barrel that drops straight down over the target is easier for your brain to sight with than a lighter barrel doing a figure eight dance.

Choked barrels can be shortened without affecting accuracy as long as the muzzle is properly crowned.

Ron Smith has done this for customers who use his continuously tapered barrels and it is not a problem with straight twist barrels.

However if it is a gain twist barrel the final twist may not be as tight requiring you to need to use a shorter bullet.

For Silhouette five shot strings a heavier barrel is a better choice.
However in the Schuetzen game where you have 50 shot events we do shorten the barrel due to the amount of time you have to hold the rifle.
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John Bly
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Re: Shortening barrel for offhand shooting

Post by John Bly »

The US Army determined years ago that most shooters can shoot a rifle that is too short for them better than one that is too long. That's why military rifles always seem to have a short length of pull. One that fits you will feel better when you hold it. A heavy barrel is generally recommended for offhand shooting as it has a bigger moment of inertia which means simply it should wobble more slowly. I don't like a heavy rifle. I've had 12 lb rifles and did not shoot well with them. I like mine right about 11 lbs. I've lost many matches with my low chicken scores and with looking at 76 years of age next year I don't expect to improve greatly. I do plan on trying to improve my core strength and getting more offhand practice for next years shooting.
"Perfection consists not so much in doing extraordinary things as in doing ordinary things extraordinarily well"
martinibelgian
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Re: Shortening barrel for offhand shooting

Post by martinibelgian »

The secret to a good offhand position is that it won't use any muscular strength, otherwise fatigue will kick in. I shot 10m air rifle competition when young, you build a position using 'bone contact', not muscular strength. As Wayne is practising with air rifle, I'm pretty sure he knows this. And yes, that's how these match air rifles are set up, there's a reason for it... Unless every top olympic match shooter is wrong of course, but scores seem to prove otherwise.

When the point of balance is too far forward, the buttplate has a tendency to slip upwards (remember that pronged schuetzen buttplate, that's what it is for), and it is very hard to stop the muzzle from moving.

Yes, a heavy barrel/rifle adds stability. No, too much weight up front will always be a handicap. So the best offhand rifle would have a short, fat barrel to both have enough weight and put the balance point where you want it. I prefer ugly and accurate over beautiful and not being able to shoot it well. Of course, beautiful and accurate is even better...
jackrabbit
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Re: Shortening barrel for offhand shooting

Post by jackrabbit »

The beauty and frustration of BPCR silhouette is you have to shoot the same rifle both prone and offhand. 3/4 of the points come from the prone position, and there for require the main concentration to be on the prone targets. Therefore, one ends up shooting a rifle designed for prone in the offhand position without the aid of a sling, palm rest, shooting jacket, or hooked buttplate. Information and experience from other disciplines is interesting, but really has limited value. To win at BPCR silhouette one needs to develop a rifle, load, and skill level to hit a bunch of the prone targets, then learn how to shoot the same rifle offhand and kill a bunch of chickens. It is hard to do well at both. In my career I have flopped back and forth. I'll spend a bunch of time and effort to shoot the prone targets well and my chicken scores will suffer, then I will work on the chickens and my prone scores will suffer. The matches I have killed an enormous amount of chickens, I couldn't hit a prone to save my life. Likewise, the matches I nearly cleaned the prone targets, I only managed a chicken or two. AAAGGGHHHHH!!!! lol

Truthfully, as much as I love shooting chickens, I think for big bore BPCR, I the limited time and effort we all have is best spent working on killing as many prone targets as possible, and then working to get 3 to 5 chickens. If one can kill 28-30 prones, and 3-5 chickens, that will put him/her in the winners circle at most any match in the country. 20 prones and 9 chickens is still only a AAA score. While earning won lots of high fives and headlining the match report, it often won't win the match.

Thanks for the interesting discussion, Cody
SSShooter
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Re: Shortening barrel for offhand shooting

Post by SSShooter »

martinibelgian wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:40 amThe secret to a good offhand position is that it won't use any muscular strength, otherwise fatigue will kick in.
That's the key to off-hand shooting. Your position has to be supported 'bone-on-bone' by your skeleton, with enough core-strength to slow your wobbles.
Glenn
SchuetzenDave
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Re: Shortening barrel for offhand shooting

Post by SchuetzenDave »

My partner was a Master shooter.
Master shooters knock down virtually all of the prone animals and the winner is the Master who is able to shoot down more chickens.
Schuetzen shooters learn to hold their rifles in a balanced position but also learn to use their feet and hips to adjust for windage and elevation without resulting in muscle tension from movement of arms and hands.
Bone on bone hold is important but it is to no avail if you also incorporate muscle tension from using the wrong movements to sight in.
Our best Schuetzen shooter who was on the cover of the Precision Shooting Magazine was a phenomenal offhand shooter who was an 18 year old girl who never had upper body strength like us male shooters.
You need to learn how to hold the rifle and sight in in with proper movement of the correct parts of your body.
You really do not need upper body strength.
In fact weight lifters have been found to be very poor offhand shooters.
Skip
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Re: Shortening barrel for offhand shooting

Post by Skip »

I concur that "natural point of aim" is critical. Take your stance with your eyes closed and then open them and see where the rifle is pointing. Adjust your feet for windage and elevation. I do this during the ready period. Another and I think the most important factor is to practice enough so that your eyes pull the trigger. In other words, when the sights line up on target, the gun goes off without you thinking about it. This is shooting sub-consciously. I have shot my best scores when I put in the work ahead of time. This skill is very perishable.
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jackrabbit
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Re: Shortening barrel for offhand shooting

Post by jackrabbit »

SSShooter wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 9:24 am
martinibelgian wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:40 amThe secret to a good offhand position is that it won't use any muscular strength, otherwise fatigue will kick in.
That's the key to off-hand shooting. Your position has to be supported 'bone-on-bone' by your skeleton, with enough core-strength to slow your wobbles.
Good luck with that, most of us have about 3" of fat on top of our bones.....lol
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slopok
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Re: Shortening barrel for offhand shooting

Post by slopok »

martinibelgian wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 2:13 am Suggest you also put some weight in the buttstock in order to get the balance point at or behind the hand position on the forend - that's what greatly contributes to offhand rifle stability. And the change in MV will be IMO negligible, certainly with a cartridge like 40-65 shooting a heavy bullet with moderate loads.
Harry pope said weight should be in the muzzle for offhand shooting,and thumb alongside the stock.
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bohemianway
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Re: Shortening barrel for offhand shooting

Post by bohemianway »

Harry did not shoot BPCR.
SSShooter
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Re: Shortening barrel for offhand shooting

Post by SSShooter »

bohemianway wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:59 pmHarry did not shoot BPCR.
But, he did occasionally shoot off-hand.
Glenn
bohemianway
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Re: Shortening barrel for offhand shooting

Post by bohemianway »

Muzzle heavy only works with butt hooks and those are not allowed. I am sure Harry was specifically referencing Schuetzen style shooting.
SchuetzenDave
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Re: Shortening barrel for offhand shooting

Post by SchuetzenDave »

Hogwash.
Modern Schuetzen rifles have heavy barrels using shotgun butt plates.
You do not need a hook butt plate to balance your rifle.
Last edited by SchuetzenDave on Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
stevewhr
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Re: Shortening barrel for offhand shooting

Post by stevewhr »

I keep thinking about offhand shooting and think I'll add some comments. Wayne, to your point of altering your gun. I still wouldn't. At the most maybe shorten the butt stock but 1/4" is a huge change so I'd begin there if I just had to. Cody is right I believe, heavy is better than lighter. I'd leave the barrel alone.
But I believe some guns are easier to shoot offhand than others. I also believe what works for me might not for you. I have had success with 24" barrels and success with 30" barrels. My current .22 barrel is 28". This is a fairly heavy gun. I've had success with set triggers and not. On most days with the .22 I will hit 40% and on good days I will hit 60% of the chickens. This being with the .22. I for certain do better with the .22 than any of my big bore guns. Typically, that is. The only explanation is probably recoil. In theory I reason that if my offhand technique was perfect, either big bore or small bore the score would be the same.
If I were building a gun for myself or anyone else, it'd have a heavier barrel of 28" or 30" length and a length of pull appropriate to the shooter. In the real world the stock length wouldn't change a whole lot between us. I'd also look for a stock with minimum drop as per BPCR rules. The guns I seem to shoot best fit this general description.
Before I did all this, I'd follow Cody's suggestion and get the With Winning in Mind. Truly the mental aspect is huge. 90% mental is a common number. That could be but it doesn't matter. The mental aspect is a big part of shooting and perhaps more so when talking offhand. Self-help books are boring as hell but this is good place to start. The author also has classes, even online classes a guy could look at. He is a former Olympic Champion, so he might know a thing or two.
When my own shooting improved, I began pulling the trigger when I was on target. Silly but many were the times I'd be on target and try for a better aim and drift off target. Then I'd shoot trying to catch up with what had been a good hold. When I started to shoot when I was on target I started to hit more. Who would have thought?! Dangerous because you could learn a bad habit of jerking the trigger but maybe try seeing how quick you can get off an aimed shot?
To be sure I don't have all the answers. Some things I know are, natural point of aim is important. Having the confidence to shoot. Meaning to know that you can hit the chicken. Often, I reinforce my confidence with aiming and expecting to hit the chicken in the head when I'm prone before I shoot offhand. I might shoot it in the head 2 or3 times even if time allows. Here is where an adequate gun and ammunition come to play. My .22 equipment will put 5 shots in a 3/8" group at 50 yards.
In the end just know that I believe virtually ANYONE can shoot offhand. It's also been a study of mine since I started this game. Many of conversations with my friends had to do with the varying theories of offhand. My friend John listened to me over and over tell him that I'd found the answer. This little or that little method was the answer. Fact is most of them were BS.
Good luck in the journey. Steve
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SchuetzenDave
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Re: Shortening barrel for offhand shooting

Post by SchuetzenDave »

I sight my rifle to impact on the top of the back of the chicken.
Then as the heavy barrel starts to drop when the chicken is centered in my sights it only drops to the center of the chicken once the shot is released.
Unfortunately when I sighted to the center of the chicken the heavy barrel would always drop enough I would always be below the chicken.
Sight higher to allow for that minimal drop after you fire.
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