Reduced front band.

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ian45662
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Reduced front band.

Post by ian45662 »

I have this 500 grain Govt bullet from BACO. The front band on it is .454. It can be pushed past the throat and the second band can then be touching the lands. I have never shot this bullet that way and I have never shot it out of anything but my trapdoor. I am going to give it a try in my Shiloh. For starters I think I will load this .458 sized bullet out far enough to where the smaller front band will go into the bore and have the second driving band seated out so that the breach block will push it about .030 into the lands. Is this common practice? I am also going to try a 540 grain Creedmoor that has all .458 bands. I will have that front band pushed about .030 into the lands. Is that something that usually works good for people or no? Either way I am going to try it but I wanted to see what others were doing.
Woody
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Re: Reduced front band.

Post by Woody »

Ian,

I have the BACO Govt mold without a reduced band. I have seated it just short of engraving and let it jump to the rifling. It shoots lights out in my 77 Shiloh 45-90. I settled on a postel style, so I don't shoot the Govt much anymore.

Woody
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John Bly
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Re: Reduced front band.

Post by John Bly »

Sharps have almost no camming ability so you may need a seating tool which is not allowed everywhere. I load all my ammo to seat with thumb pressure only with the bullets seated just at maximum length to allow this.
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desert deuce
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Re: Reduced front band.

Post by desert deuce »

Disallowing a breech seater seems to be extremely localized and nonsensical if the breech seater is specifically designed to be used in that rifle.

If using 1-16 alloy or softer, 30 thou in my rifles is doable with moderate to light thumb pressure. The trick is maintaining consistent seating depth until you get to the firing point. Don't know about your rifles.

Those big fat round designs have shot amazingly well on silhouette and targets.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
ian45662
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Re: Reduced front band.

Post by ian45662 »

In terms of accuracy, Do you guys think that having the ability to cam or push the groove diameter driving band .030 or so into the lands is something that is normally a good thing?
Maj. Forrest Smith
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Re: Reduced front band.

Post by Maj. Forrest Smith »

Simply a starting point it seems, Ian. Some rifles seems to like the bullet engraved in the rifling, some like it just touching and some prefer a touch of a jump. The rifles seems to be the only one that really knows. I think there are other factors too.
gunlaker
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Re: Reduced front band.

Post by gunlaker »

ian45662 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:27 pm In terms of accuracy, Do you guys think that having the ability to cam or push the groove diameter driving band .030 or so into the lands is something that is normally a good thing?
I think that engraving the front driving is a good thing with a slip fit bullet. In a Shiloh I like around 1/2 of the band engraved, or maybe a little less. I don't like to have to put much pressure on the lever to chamber the round. It just feels bad.

The JIM459540M3 is the bullet I use most in my .45-90's and it has the front band at 0.454" if I remember correctly. It's super accurate.

Here is a 300 yard target shot prone with that bullet. Sorry about the flyer :-)

Chris.

Image
ian45662
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Re: Reduced front band.

Post by ian45662 »

Thanks for the replies. I just tried one and the block pushes it in. I made some generic loads to try Friday. I shoot at pigs first. If they do alright there we will move to turkeys. 72 grains of Swiss 1.5
SSShooter
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Re: Reduced front band.

Post by SSShooter »

ian45662 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:27 pm In terms of accuracy, Do you guys think that having the ability to cam or push the groove diameter driving band .030 or so into the lands is something that is normally a good thing?
Anything that helps keep the bullet axis aligned with the bore axis should be a help.
Glenn
ian45662
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Re: Reduced front band.

Post by ian45662 »

I didn’t get a chance to shoot the Shiloh but I did shoot the 38. Tests were inconclusive but I might be thinking that it doesn’t like the band pushed into the lands. Had some vertices but we also had poor light. Some wind with no wind flags out. Instead of shooting at sillywet animals I think I might need to shoot on paper for a while.
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desert deuce
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Re: Reduced front band.

Post by desert deuce »

For silhouette and mid range I highly recommend the procedure outlined by Rick Moritz about ladder loads. You may be pleasantly surprised at the results.

One of the most accurate long range bullets that I have used engraved onto and past the first and second band with thumb pressure. That was one of many moulds that have done that.

Have not had much luck seating the bullet very far off the lands for long range. Makes the round easier to chamber but that is about the only advantage I found so I quit doing it.

Actual breech seating (Where the bullet is pushed hard into the rifling before chambering the charged case) works just fine but is too slow, for me, for present competition time constraints where preventing barrel fouling is paramount. Notice, I used the word prevent, not mitigate.

Using a cartridge seater to push past the first driving band when chambering converted so so accuracy at 800 yards to half min vert at that distance for one particular rifle and load.

I hope Gunlaker keeps on shooting those high quality targets and finally convinces himself he has to come south of the border for a match or two.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
gunlaker
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Re: Reduced front band.

Post by gunlaker »

desert deuce wrote: Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:26 pm I hope Gunlaker keeps on shooting those high quality targets and finally convinces himself he has to come south of the border for a match or two.
I am definitely trying to get back down there. I'm just not sure when. I know everyone has lots of excuses, but time and money are a little tight right now. Last year I put my race car into the wall a just a little bit and I'm still trying to figure out how to get it all fixed up for cheap.

Chris.
ian45662
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Re: Reduced front band.

Post by ian45662 »

desert deuce wrote: Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:26 pm For silhouette and mid range I highly recommend the procedure outlined by Rick Moritz about ladder loads. You may be pleasantly surprised at the results.

One of the most accurate long range bullets that I have used engraved onto and past the first and second band with thumb pressure. That was one of many moulds that have done that.

Have not had much luck seating the bullet very far off the lands for long range. Makes the round easier to chamber but that is about the only advantage I found so I quit doing it.

Actual breech seating (Where the bullet is pushed hard into the rifling before chambering the charged case) works just fine but is too slow, for me, for present competition time constraints where preventing barrel fouling is paramount. Notice, I used the word prevent, not mitigate.

Using a cartridge seater to push past the first driving band when chambering converted so so accuracy at 800 yards to half min vert at that distance for one particular rifle and load.

I hope Gunlaker keeps on shooting those high quality targets and finally convinces himself he has to come south of the border for a match or two.
This bullet I’m playing with for my 38 has 2 reduced hands. Really it’s for my wife’s rifle but I wanted to play with in mine. It is about .0005 undersized for my groove diameter though. The band that is a little over bore diameter in my wife’s rifle is under bore diameter in my rifle. It slightly engraves with thumb pressure in hers but is very loose in mine and of course doesn’t engrave at all. Maybe I should just go ahead and order a mould made specifically for the dimensions of my rifle.
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: Reduced front band.

Post by Lumpy Grits »

ian45662 wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:39 am
desert deuce wrote: Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:26 pm For silhouette and mid range I highly recommend the procedure outlined by Rick Moritz about ladder loads. You may be pleasantly surprised at the results.

One of the most accurate long range bullets that I have used engraved onto and past the first and second band with thumb pressure. That was one of many moulds that have done that.

Have not had much luck seating the bullet very far off the lands for long range. Makes the round easier to chamber but that is about the only advantage I found so I quit doing it.

Actual breech seating (Where the bullet is pushed hard into the rifling before chambering the charged case) works just fine but is too slow, for me, for present competition time constraints where preventing barrel fouling is paramount. Notice, I used the word prevent, not mitigate.

Using a cartridge seater to push past the first driving band when chambering converted so so accuracy at 800 yards to half min vert at that distance for one particular rifle and load.

I hope Gunlaker keeps on shooting those high quality targets and finally convinces himself he has to come south of the border for a match or two.
This bullet I’m playing with for my 38 has 2 reduced hands. Really it’s for my wife’s rifle but I wanted to play with in mine. It is about .0005 undersized for my groove diameter though. The band that is a little over bore diameter in my wife’s rifle is under bore diameter in my rifle. It slightly engraves with thumb pressure in hers but is very loose in mine and of course doesn’t engrave at all. Maybe I should just go ahead and order a mould made specifically for the dimensions of my rifle.
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ian45662
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Re: Reduced front band.

Post by ian45662 »

Lumpy Grits wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:47 am
ian45662 wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:39 am
desert deuce wrote: Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:26 pm For silhouette and mid range I highly recommend the procedure outlined by Rick Moritz about ladder loads. You may be pleasantly surprised at the results.

One of the most accurate long range bullets that I have used engraved onto and past the first and second band with thumb pressure. That was one of many moulds that have done that.

Have not had much luck seating the bullet very far off the lands for long range. Makes the round easier to chamber but that is about the only advantage I found so I quit doing it.

Actual breech seating (Where the bullet is pushed hard into the rifling before chambering the charged case) works just fine but is too slow, for me, for present competition time constraints where preventing barrel fouling is paramount. Notice, I used the word prevent, not mitigate.

Using a cartridge seater to push past the first driving band when chambering converted so so accuracy at 800 yards to half min vert at that distance for one particular rifle and load.

I hope Gunlaker keeps on shooting those high quality targets and finally convinces himself he has to come south of the border for a match or two.
This bullet I’m playing with for my 38 has 2 reduced hands. Really it’s for my wife’s rifle but I wanted to play with in mine. It is about .0005 undersized for my groove diameter though. The band that is a little over bore diameter in my wife’s rifle is under bore diameter in my rifle. It slightly engraves with thumb pressure in hers but is very loose in mine and of course doesn’t engrave at all. Maybe I should just go ahead and order a mould made specifically for the dimensions of my rifle.
Call it the 'His & Her' profile :lol:
That’s right :D
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