16lb. Bull Bbl. Shiloh #3 45-100

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Don McDowell
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Re: 16lb. Bull Bbl. Shiloh #3 45-100

Post by Don McDowell »

The poly wads and the veg fiber wads either one works
The 1/8 inch felt wads Baco sells on top of which every the thin wad you choose, but if you get the lube felts then it’s best to put a thin wad punched from wax paper or a playing card over it before seating the bullet to keep those lubed felts from contaminating the paper
55w is Seth Cole comes in rolls. Cut it to strips 7/8 - 1 inch wide and then cut the patch from the strips
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BlackJack
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Re: 16lb. Bull Bbl. Shiloh #3 45-100

Post by BlackJack »

semtav wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:49 am
BlackJack wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:50 pm HSo, I picked a dummy load by Lyman manual of a 535 .458 postell at 3.55 coal and its a no go the base sticks out about .250+/-.
The bull barrels have a slightly tighter chamber than normal shiloh barrels.
Take a case and fill it with black powder and put a couple wads on it, or put some smokeless and cornmeal in and a wad on top and fire it.
then, the largest bullet that fits in that fireformed case is as large as you can use in that gun with that brass unless you ream or turn the brass neck down.
also pay attention to the lip of the case and see that it is not pinched in indicating slightly too long of brass.

Edit (As I see bobw also said)
Hello semtav and thanks for the info! My test case fit in and seated ok without bullet. Also, measured just the chamber from case ring to the shoulder in the chamber and my trimmed case 2.59 and looked ok. But running in with bullet and it sliding inside case it was seated I thought very low just above the top guide ring. I made me a case like the hornady kit has for coal. I threaded it so I could adjust bullet depth etc. I've made several for 45-60, 45-70, 45-75, 45-90 and now the 45-100 So... :?
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BlackJack
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Re: 16lb. Bull Bbl. Shiloh #3 45-100

Post by BlackJack »

Don McDowell wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:42 pm The poly wads and the veg fiber wads either one works
The 1/8 inch felt wads Baco sells on top of which every the thin wad you choose, but if you get the lube felts then it’s best to put a thin wad punched from wax paper or a playing card over it before seating the bullet to keep those lubed felts from contaminating the paper
55w is Seth Cole comes in rolls. Cut it to strips 7/8 - 1 inch wide and then cut the patch from the strips
Thanks Don, Getting kinda confused trying to understand in building a load on what to fill case with. so many different wads, bullets, etc. I've been loading since 1968-9 dealing with smokeless had good success and always been careful with load data, bullet wgt. and seating and still have both eyes, arms, etc! LOL! but starting with BP I guess its not as critical as with smokeless? :?
gunlaker
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Re: 16lb. Bull Bbl. Shiloh #3 45-100

Post by gunlaker »

Black powder loading sounds complicated until you do it :-). Particularly if you are used to loading smokeless.

Black powder will generally produce way less pressure than smokeless. You won't be able to put enough 1.5Fg into that case to develop pressure that is even 25% of what that gun could probably handle.

If the nose on the bullet is .449" and they are seated with no runout, you should have no problem chambering a load with that bullet where all of the grease grooves are covered.

With that Postel bullet, figure out how much length of the bullet is in the case when it's at the max length your rifle will handle. Fill it up with enough powder to fill to a little above that. Maybe 0.030" higher. Stick in a 0.060" LDPE wad on top of the bullet. Compress the wad so the top is where the bullet base wants to be. Stick that bullet in there. Shoot it :-)

Fireformed brass with slip fit bullets should shoot well ( zero neck tension, bullet pushed in with your fingers ). If you use neck tension at all, then use very little. I get really good results with 0.001" neck tension but with annealed cases. Try slip fit first because it's simpler.

Paper patch is just as easy once you get your head wrapped around the idea.

Chris.
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Don McDowell
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Re: 16lb. Bull Bbl. Shiloh #3 45-100

Post by Don McDowell »

It can be a bit confusing
Thing to keep in mind is find the OAL, then measure how far from the base of the bullet to the bottom of the case, then fill that space with powder and wads. Then you get to work on how much or how little compression the target tells you the powder wants, by adding subtraction how much powder you put in a case. One fella I shoot with uses 78 grs of Swiss 1/2 in his 100 with one of the BACO money bullets (greaser). But it's sounding like your rifle likely has a paper patch chamber of one flavor or another, so greasers will likely not work well unless seated really deep.
Wiping between shots will give you the best accuracy with patched loads, proper use of a blow tube works well with grease grooves, but again a good wiping routine is hard to beat.
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BlackJack
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Re: 16lb. Bull Bbl. Shiloh #3 45-100

Post by BlackJack »

gunlaker wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:21 pm Black powder loading sounds complicated until you do it :-). Particularly if you are used to loading smokeless.

Black powder will generally produce way less pressure than smokeless. You won't be able to put enough 1.5Fg into that case to develop pressure that is even 25% of what that gun could probably handle.

If the nose on the bullet is .449" and they are seated with no runout, you should have no problem chambering a load with that bullet where all of the grease grooves are covered.

With that Postel bullet, figure out how much length of the bullet is in the case when it's at the max length your rifle will handle. Fill it up with enough powder to fill to a little above that. Maybe 0.030" higher. Stick in a 0.060" LDPE wad on top of the bullet. Compress the wad so the top is where the bullet base wants to be. Stick that bullet in there. Shoot it :-)

Fireformed brass with slip fit bullets should shoot well ( zero neck tension, bullet pushed in with your fingers ). If you use neck tension at all, then use very little. I get really good results with 0.001" neck tension but with annealed cases. Try slip fit first because it's simpler.

Paper patch is just as easy once you get your head wrapped around the idea.

Chris.
That's what I'm looking for a load with proper OAL and measure amount of bullet is in case fill that open area with powder and wad/s finger seat a PP bullet firmly on top with just a touch of crimp or maybe not depends on how tight the bullet seats by hand.
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BlackJack
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Re: 16lb. Bull Bbl. Shiloh #3 45-100

Post by BlackJack »

Don McDowell wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:23 pm It can be a bit confusing
Thing to keep in mind is find the OAL, then measure how far from the base of the bullet to the bottom of the case, then fill that space with powder and wads. Then you get to work on how much or how little compression the target tells you the powder wants, by adding subtraction how much powder you put in a case. One fella I shoot with uses 78 grs of Swiss 1/2 in his 100 with one of the BACO money bullets (greaser). But it's sounding like your rifle likely has a paper patch chamber of one flavor or another, so greasers will likely not work well unless seated really deep.
Wiping between shots will give you the best accuracy with patched loads, proper use of a blow tube works well with grease grooves, but again a good wiping routine is hard to beat.
Hello again Don, yep, when I can I'd like to have the right amount of powder under hopefully one wad so when I seat the bullet my OAL would be the PP bullet just touching the lands!
So, if I go with a greaser wad and a poly? Under the greaser protect the powder then hand seat the bullet to the OAL (I guess measure each with calipers) and start with that. So it doesn't matter what charge to start with as long as it's close to 80gn? Here is what I'll do: test a dummy with bullet run in chamber 'till it seats just up against the lands pull out make measurement of part of bullet in the case then measure from inside base to the bullet charge with x amount of powder and wad/s thickness then can tell to seat bullet down on the wad/s to determine my pre-measured OAL? Again, thanks for helping me👍👍😎!
By the way just ordered earlier 2 lb. of Swiss 1.5F. no PP bullets or paper yet or drop tube.
Did send msg. to Kirk asking the internal secs of a Bull Bbl. So I'll know what dia. PP bullet to order and the correct paper.
The 55W Paper where is that found? and what thickness is that? I think the BACO 9LB is .002?
semtav
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Re: 16lb. Bull Bbl. Shiloh #3 45-100

Post by semtav »

Blackjack,
Maybe I've misunderstood you, but why do you want a patched to bore bullet seated to just touch the lands.
Am I missing something?
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Don McDowell
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Re: 16lb. Bull Bbl. Shiloh #3 45-100

Post by Don McDowell »

Blackjack fiber and poly both work . It's mostly a matter of what you the rifle and the target agree on.
I get the Seth Cole paper on Amazon. The 55w measures around .018 just a touch thinner than the 9 lb papers, but a bit thicker than the 7 lb.
Staring charge with the grease groove will be what ever amount of powder it takes so that when the bullet is seated it's in firm contact with the wad, which is in firm contact with the powder. Slip fit in fireformed cases generally works best.
If you don't have one you may want to get a compression die (shiloh sells a good one) to seat the wad and compress the powder with, as doing so with just the bullet will likely deform the bullet nose and that will deal you tons of fits.
I believe BobW said somewhere above that under the forearm the barrel will be stamped if it has a paper patch chamber might not hurt to drop the forearm and take a look.
Ps. I don't know if Staples still sells it or not but they have/had an 8 lb roll paper in their drafting supplies that is almost identical to the 55w. If you have one close by might not hurt to pop in and see if they have it.
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BlackJack
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Re: 16lb. Bull Bbl. Shiloh #3 45-100

Post by BlackJack »

semtav wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:31 pm Blackjack,
Maybe I've misunderstood you, but why do you want a patched to bore bullet seated to just touch the lands.
Am I missing something?
Well, maybe I screwed up doesn’t the bullet gi on up in the lands more?
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BlackJack
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Re: 16lb. Bull Bbl. Shiloh #3 45-100

Post by BlackJack »

semtav wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:31 pm Blackjack,
Maybe I've misunderstood you, but why do you want a patched to bore bullet seated to just touch the lands.
Am I missing something?
No, I probably was wrong doesn't the PP go on up into the lands alittle?
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BlackJack
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Re: 16lb. Bull Bbl. Shiloh #3 45-100

Post by BlackJack »

Don McDowell wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:35 pm Blackjack fiber and poly both work . It's mostly a matter of what you the rifle and the target agree on.
I get the Seth Cole paper on Amazon. The 55w measures around .018 just a touch thinner than the 9 lb papers, but a bit thicker than the 7 lb.
Staring charge with the grease groove will be what ever amount of powder it takes so that when the bullet is seated it's in firm contact with the wad, which is in firm contact with the powder. Slip fit in fireformed cases generally works best.
If you don't have one you may want to get a compression die (shiloh sells a good one) to seat the wad and compress the powder with, as doing so with just the bullet will likely deform the bullet nose and that will deal you tons of fits.
I believe BobW said somewhere above that under the forearm the barrel will be stamped if it has a paper patch chamber might not hurt to drop the forearm and take a look.
Ps. I don't know if Staples still sells it or not but they have/had an 8 lb roll paper in their drafting supplies that is almost identical to the 55w. If you have one close by might not hurt to pop in and see if they have it.
Wish I had some fireformed cases I've just got a few Bell cases but did find 50 Starline got them coming. Compression die saw it in the Shiloh Catalog. Yep, I've had the forearm off but didn't notice any marks was just wiping down with a coat of oil but will take back off and do a Sherlock Homes on it! Will check out Staples and Amazon after I find out what dia. of bullet. I did msg. Kirk about specs on the tighter chamber/bore of bull bbls. Other than the normal 450/458. Getting good info from you guys getting alittle more at ease with this new gig of BP! Got 2lbs of Swiss coming I ordered earlier today got a msg. said pending delivery Monday that's fast!
semtav
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Re: 16lb. Bull Bbl. Shiloh #3 45-100

Post by semtav »

BlackJack wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:10 pm
semtav wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:31 pm Blackjack,
Maybe I've misunderstood you, but why do you want a patched to bore bullet seated to just touch the lands.
Am I missing something?
No, I probably was wrong doesn't the PP go on up into the lands alittle?
If you were casting to groove dia. Yes to what you were describing. If you are casting to bore, now would be a great time to invest in Kenny W's book.
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BlackJack
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Re: 16lb. Bull Bbl. Shiloh #3 45-100

Post by BlackJack »

semtav wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:47 pm
BlackJack wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:10 pm
semtav wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:31 pm Blackjack,
Maybe I've misunderstood you, but why do you want a patched to bore bullet seated to just touch the lands.
Am I missing something?
No, I probably was wrong doesn't the PP go on up into the lands alittle?
If you were casting to groove dia. Yes to what you were describing. If you are casting to bore, now would be a great time to invest in Kenny W's book.
Oh, I haven't cast lead since about 1967-8 for old smokeless loads the bullets I have I bought 458 535 Postells.
semtav
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Re: 16lb. Bull Bbl. Shiloh #3 45-100

Post by semtav »

I meant patching to groove/bore.
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