I am getting frustrated

[dm3280]

I have been trying to develop a load for my 45/70 Sharps and getting no where. Maybe someone can see something I have not tried and suggest something. I am using a Paul Jones 45017 mould and casting very nice looking and consistant weighted bullets. I run them through a .458 sizer and lube them.
I am using Winchester cases and Federal 215 magnum Gold Medal primers. I use a 24 in drop tube and weight each charge to the grain. I also weigh each bullet to make sure there is +- .5 grain difference in the bullets. I lube them with SPG.
After slowly pouring the GOEX FF powder down the 24 in drop tube I place a card board wad in then compress the powder. Next I place a wax paper disc over that and then seat the bullet covering all the groves. The compression amount depends on the amount of powder I am using. I finally us a tapper crimp and crimp the case just enough to huld the bullet in.
I have tried powder charges, in .5 grain increments, from 63 grains to 70. My results are never better than 4 inch group at 100 yards from the bench.
Bullets have been cast from pure lead which created a lot of leading to 1-20 and 1-30. I have tried cleaning between every shot to puffing 3 - 5 long breaths after each shot to just shooting until I got tired before cleaning.

Any suggestions? I know it is not the bullet since I have also tried other bullet styles such as Lyman 457124 and others. I want to use a bullet with a large meplat since this load will be for a buffalo hunt so going to a longer pointier bullet is not an option.
:?

[Lead Pot]

dm3280

I have a Browning .45-70 BPCR I had that problem with it.I threatened that rifle that I would make a hunting rifle out of it ,and drag it over rocks and dead fall If it would'nt shoot decent soon.It would get about 4" @ 200 yds. and 2 1/2" with my swaged jacketed bullets and a load of 30 31 powder.

I ended with a load for this rifle with a Win. case Win large rifle primer with two news print wades over the flash hole and I use a .020 card or coffee can plastic lid wad for over the powder, 66 gr of Goex cart. powder with a 540 gr bullet at 1100 fps.Now it shoots.
I guess you could use a pistol primer,I dont like to.There are to soft and seet to deep if you dont controll your priming depth.
I like Win large primers or CCI BR2 .I stay away from the mag primers

dm I would make a one component change at a time and keep good records.
Blow tube till the fouling is black at the muzzle,not gray.Different climets require more or less blowing.
Make sure you dont have a lead fouled bore that will give you more of a head ache.

Good luck Kurt.

[TYRVR]

I had a old timer in BP Catridge shooting tell me something once, I was having the same problems with a Shiloh 45-100......he told me to move my target out to two hundred yards, he said the bigger bullets, with black powder propelling them just do not stabilize enough in 100 yards of travel to be consistent, so, groups suffer.
He was prophetetic, my groups dropped to 2.5-3 inches average, at two hundred, and with load adjustment....shot some VERY pleasing groups, I am not the type of guy that analyizes the why of something, so, I will not offer up any formulas or bore you with theoretical mumbo-jumbo, just try it like I did, several other folks here have noted the same results,

Good Luck,

Ol,Tye,

[Texas Shooter]

Ol'Tye:

If your bullet spread is about 4 inches at 100 yrds, how does one get 2.5 - 3 inches at 200 yards?

I know you didn't analyze it, but do you have any ideas why this would be so?

Thanks,

Texas Shooter

[HvyMtl]

Ol,tye

If my rifles don't shoot real good at 100 yds., I know they won't shoot good at 200 yds. If the group at 100 yds. is wide, it's only going to get wider beyond that.

Ken

[Capt Henry]

DM3280
I am using a similar load for my 45-70, well somewhat similar. I am using WW cases neck sized, federal 215m primer, 65 grains of Swiss 2F with a .030 Walters wad with a newspaper disc under the bullet and a Lyman postell 530 grain bullet with 20-1 alloy, and SPG lube I use a 24 inch drop tube. The powder compression is .130. over all lenght is 2.75 which puts the bullet just in the lands. I size and lube to .458. I do not crimp the bullet but leave a slight flare on the case.
My groups are now well within 1.5 inches at 100 yards I hope to go to 200 yards when we get the road fixed where we shoot , and as soon as I get my back sight repaired
This is the first load that I have been able to get to shoot well in my Sharps so I am sticking with it and getting a great deal more trigger time before doing any more load changes.
I hope this helps some.
I am shooting a Shiloh #1 sporter with a 32 inch barrel.

It is always a good feeling when things come together, a good example of this. I was conducting a training class for concealed weapons and had a couple of young women in the class that had never shot a pistol before and they so informed me at the begining of the class. So when we went on the range to shoot I put both women together on one end so I could work with them. As I went down the line addressing each student in turn firing one round I heard a lively discussion from these two women. I went down to see what the arguement was and when I ask how things were going the one woman looked at me and said they were argueing on how to load the pistol, looking at me with the most inocent look she said that she told the other girl that to load the pistol you "[b]put the pointy end in first[b]" attempting to keep a straight face I said yes that would be one way to describe it, she turned to the other girl and said "see I was right"
Needless to say they got the most attention and passed with flying colors and were the hit of the class. They still shoot and have become very responsible gun owners.

[Kelley O. Roos]

DM3280

Here's my opinion for what ever it's worth,

Neck size only and expand the neck to get 1 to 2 thousandt's neck tension, loose the crimp.

Primer's would be a good thing to change. Try the CCI-BR2's as suggested for starting point. The softer igniting primers seem to work well.

You didn't mention anything about engraving the bullet into the rifling, if you do or don't?

Can't help with the powder, I don't shoot Goex.

You didn't say were you shoot and what the heat and humidity is like. The heat and humidity in your area would need to be known for lube analysis. Whoa, I used a big word ..

100 yard testing should be fine. If a bullet isn't stable by then, it never will be.

So good luck,

Kelley O.

[Harlan Sage]

dm,

It sounds to me your load should do better than 4 inch at 100yards. Before making many load changes, consider your shooting practices. Pease don't take offense here, I just want to say that a shooter can shoot badly from the bench as any position. Remember, keep a tight firm grip on the rifle, stay with the rifle with good follow through. Some guys tend to forget good shooting practices just because you are shooting from a benched position. I recently shot at 200 yards a 2 inch high by 7" wide group by letting the rifle touque in my hands while shooting from the bench.
Like Kelley said, loose the crimp.
Try other primers, bullets and try compressing the Goex .350 to .380".

Harlan

[Monty]

I had a similar situation with my 45-110. Finally checked bullet diameter and found my mould was casting under sized. Bullets must be the right size, even the slightest bit under .458 would not work for me.
Monty

[PowderFlask2]

I third the notion of losing the crimp

I tried a taper crimp die so I could chamber the same rounds in different rifles and accuracy in my target rifle went to S**T

also make sure that the compression die is getting the wad just below the bullet base and the bullet receives no distortion on seating

[TYRVR]

Like I said....I don't know why.....but my rifle was throwing groups, some times I would have an enlongated hole where a bullet had tailed, but when I set the target at two hundred, the tailing stopped and the groups shrunk.......I ain't eddercated enough to tell why it works....somethings in life just have to to be tried on trust. I did, and it worked for me, that old LRE with the 34" tube settled them big old 535 grain bullets down and put them in some nice clusters, I shoot several rifles and the 50-2.5" I shoot now has a Badger barrel, this barrel will group at about any distance, might be that the difference is in the depth and twist of the Shiloh rifling......what ever,

[ironramrod]

dm,

Kelley has it exactly right when he says try the CCI-BR2 primers. I took his advice from way back when, and the improvement was amazing to say the least. An excellent tip from one of the premier riflemen in the game.

Harlan also has it exactly right, when he says to check your shooting style; one has to manage the torque/recoil so it consistent from shot to shot or bullets go everyplace. This is one of those artsy/all in the wrists type deals that one just has to work at until it you figure out what works for you (i.e. trigger time).

Additionally, it sounds like you are developing your loads for a hunting trip. Thus, you might consider doing your load testing/development with the shooting positions you will encounter while hunting (e.g. prone, sitting etc.). Besides you won't have the bench with you on your hunting trip anyway. Personally, I don't shoot all that great off a bench; I much prefer to shoot sitting with cross-sticks.

Regards

[JAGG]

I don't know what the bullet weight is but when you put a wax paper dic on top of your card wad and under the bullet you could be having the wax melt under the pressure and holding the wad to the bullet base at times ! What is the bullet weight and shape ? How much compression etc. ? JAGG

[dm3280]

I don't take anything persnnally when folks are trying to help. I have often thought my shooting style may be what is causing part of my problem. I am loading up a bunch more loads based on what I have read here. I won't leave a stone unturned until I get this thing shooting. I know the rifle can shoot since it was made by Shiloh and too many others are having great success with simialr bullets. I guess it is like a combination to a safe. Until the right cobination is put in the door just won't open
Thanks to all for the help

[Crash Landing]

3280
I read the posts and they have quite a bit of good info in them for you to utilize. One thing your original message did not mention was the type sights you are using. You also did not mention anything about your bench rest technique or if your shots were strung vertically, horizontally, or spread evenly in the four inches.
I’ll throw a few things into the mix you may consider. If you are using open sights, a four-inch group at 100 yards does not necessarily mean the rifle is not performing. Have you tried your same loads at 200 yards? You may find that it groups only slightly larger, especially if you are using open sights and your eyes have (how can I put this gently?) “matured” naturally. Another consideration is bench rest technique. Many shooters are of the opinion that a rifle will automatically shoot better from the bench. Yet, few shooters know proper bench rest techniques. The most common mistake I see is putting too much check pressure on the stock, which induces a bending movement on the rifle and will cause vertical stringing of your groups. The two-piece stocks most of our single shots have, are particularly sensitive to this bending movement. Another critical bench rest technique is FOLLOW-THROUGH. When you break the trigger, let that baby recoil and come back down before you even think about moving. Too many shooters absolve themselves of all responsibility for the shot as soon as the trigger breaks and their shots WILL NOT go into a tight group. The suggestion by “ironramrod” to shoot off cross sticks has merit and you may find you actually get better accuracy that way.
I think we BPCR shooters tend to spend way too much time tweaking our loads rather than first getting enough range time to really learn how to shoot these things.
Hope this helps.