Felt wads and grease cookies

[JonnyV]

Reading through numerous old posts, there are many references to felt wads, grease cookies, and wad stacks. Over read Kenny’s book and got the idea behind the wad stack. There are also remarks about HDPE wads versus LDPE. I have a couple bags of Walters poly wads in addition to the.060 fiber wads. Up until now, I’ve only run a single .060 fiber wads with a release wads to make sure the fiber wad doesn’t stick to the bullet.

So how many of you guys are running wad stacks in competition? Have you noticed issues with base finning on recovered bullets? If so, what alloy are you using? Are you using the lubed felt wads or dry ones?

Sorry so many questions…

[martinibelgian]

I always wondered about that newspaper wad on top of the card/ fiber/ LDPE wad. So the lower wad shouldn't stick, but it is ok that the upper wad sticks? It being thinner and lighter, there is even more chance of it sticking... of course, only applicable for GG bullets, with a PP bullet there's no lube, so no danger of sticking...

[bobw]

Disagree. Over the last 15 years or so I have spent the money to buy original collector ammo. It costs good money to buy it but it increases in value if you sit on it to resell later. You have spent that money when you carefully pull that ammo apart to see how it is made, you just destroyed the collector value but gained insight on the bullet, the patch, the wadding, and a multitude of other details and facts that you uncover by doing it. Most of the original factory Sharps ammo was loaded with paper patch bullets. Those bullets had a deeper cup base with a thinner thickness of skirt than designs you see today. They were patched moist with a patch long enough to give a pig tail. The tail was laid over to one side bent then laid over to the other side. Under that a card wad. Now that card wad has been reported as several different types jute, pasteboard etc. At one time or another I am sure most on this forum have seen or used hanging file folders that fit on a left and right rail in a desk drawer. Some light colored, some dark green and some a brick red color that has a slick surface texture about .02" in thickness. This was the material used for wads in a original 44-105-520 Sharps bn Creedmoor round I pulled apart. One under the bullet over the grease wad and 2 under the grease wad over the powder. I believe their term for this material was pasteboard. I can't say for sure that is the truth or just my interpretation of what it meant. There is no guy from 150 years ago telling me what they called it exactly you only have what YOU can surmise. The lube wad had dried out, powder was caked in the neck and shoulder area for about a half inch then it just poured out. Weighed 103.6 grs I have no doubt it weighed 105 when new but time and disassembly gave me 103.6. Lube wads made of a blended mix of 2 parts beeswax to 1 part sperm whale oil by weight were used in Sharps cartridges ( which were loaded by Sharps and UMC for Sharps).. I have talked to others who have pulled down other original Sharps carts to find about same. The original 400 gr grease groove 45 -2,1" bullet only had 2 very small grease grooves in it with full diameter only about 3/8" inch long it worked because there was a lubewad behind it. When Sharps moved from Hartford Conn. to Bridgeport Conn. Many things changed one of those things was the swing to promoting the 40 and 45 cal carts and dropping 44 and 50's as standard carts. They did that as a money saving step to put Sharps in the black not the red. Moves to standardize production. No one can know all the changes made by.Sharps to their own produced ammo and the ammo they had UMC produce for them or the winchester made ammo for various Sharps cartridges. It's pretty easy to say they did not use plastic wads. Target shooters of the day implemented many changes allways looking for any advantage. Lol my own pet theory on the rise of grease groove bullet use is after they ran out of buffalo and quit Creedmoor shooting not needing big bp carts anymore they found gg bullets to be adequate for short range use. When the better shooters rediscover paper patched bullets and their superior results you will see gg's regulated to also runs. The Mt 1000 was won this year by paper patch. The upswing in shooters rediscovering ppb use has been enormous since 1991 when I started using them to recreate original style ammo. Ammo evolves that in some cases does not mean it got better some need to figure that out..bobw

[ian45662]

Personally I have a slight preference to the HDPE material over The LDPE ,which is the material that Walters uses, but it may or may not work for you. You can get the HDPE material from a company called “US Plastics”. They sell 12”x12” sheets .03 and .06” in thickness. The HDPE material is harder to punch out than than the LDPE material is so a press mounted punch of some kind would be the best way to knock them out.

[Don McDowell]

With straight sided patched bullets I use a card wad punched from the thin Napa gas tank gasket material and a dry lubed muzzle loader original felt wad
Dual diameter bullets I lean towards a single card wad.
Some rifles respond very well to Joba oil on the exposed patch and wiped off ( as per Remingtons loading instruction from 1875 only substituting jojoba for spermicetti) other don’t.
The thing about running patched in competition it’s not like shooting greasers where you can go to the internet and find oddness of tested load data, each rifle has its own preferences and it takes time and rounds down range to find what a rifle likes consistently well.

[JonnyV]

I always wondered about that newspaper wad on top of the card/ fiber/ LDPE wad. So the lower wad shouldn't stick, but it is ok that the upper wad sticks? It being thinner and lighter, there is even more chance of it sticking... of course, only applicable for GG bullets, with a PP bullet there's no lube, so no danger of sticking...

Parchment paper works a lot better. The lube won’t penetrate it, it handles heat well, nothing sticks to it. Available at your local grocery store. Put this between the bullet and everything else. These wads flutter down within 3 feet of the muzzle.

[martinibelgian]

Parchment paper works a lot better. The lube won’t penetrate it, it handles heat well, nothing sticks to it. Available at your local grocery store. Put this between the bullet and everything else. These wads flutter down within 3 feet of the muzzle.

Yes, but still - why? Just clean the base of the bullet and it's not required. And if it is required, you still have an issue because the bullet will still be dragging along whatever - parchment paper, newspaper,...

[ian45662]

In theory if the base is clean then nothing should stick to it and that does seem to be true…… However……. The news paper was or the parchment wad, that’s just an added layer of protection. In the off chance that something sticks to the base I would rather it be a small piece of paper than an entire wad. One would think that would have much less affect than a .06 wad of whatever material. If you feel that it’s not necessary then omit it.

[JonnyV]

Parchment paper works a lot better. The lube won’t penetrate it, it handles heat well, nothing sticks to it. Available at your local grocery store. Put this between the bullet and everything else. These wads flutter down within 3 feet of the muzzle.

Yes, but still - why? Just clean the base of the bullet and it's not required. And if it is required, you still have an issue because the bullet will still be dragging along whatever - parchment paper, newspaper,...

I do clean the bases of my bullets. That being said, bullet lube won't stick to parchment paper, won't penetrate it either. It will penetrate and stick to any type of newspaper, even the shiny stuff. If the lube can penetrate the paper, then it can stick all three layers together.

I got this idea after reading a bunch of posts on this forum regarding guys finding bullet wads out at the base of the target. There would be only one way for a fiber wad to make it out that far, and that is because it stuck to the base of the bullet. With the parchment wads, there is no chance of anything sticking.

[bobw]

Disagree. Over the last 15 years or so I have spent the money to buy original collector ammo. It costs good money to buy it but it increases in value if you sit on it to resell later. You have spent that money when you carefully pull that ammo apart to see how it is made, you just destroyed the collector value but gained insight on the bullet, the patch, the wadding, and a multitude of other details and facts that you uncover by doing it. Most of the original factory Sharps ammo was loaded with paper patch bullets. Those bullets had a deeper cup base with a thinner thickness of skirt than designs you see today. They were patched moist with a patch long enough to give a pig tail. The tail was laid over to one side bent then laid over to the other side. Under that a card wad. Now that card wad has been reported as several different types jute, pasteboard etc. At one time or another I am sure most on this forum have seen or used hanging file folders that fit on a left and right rail in a desk drawer. Some light colored, some dark green and some a brick red color that has a slick surface texture about .02" in thickness. This was the material used for wads in a original 44-105-520 Sharps bn Creedmoor round I pulled apart. One under the bullet over the grease wad and 2 under the grease wad over the powder. I believe their term for this material was pasteboard. I can't say for sure that is the truth or just my interpretation of what it meant. There is no guy from 150 years ago telling me what they called it exactly you only have what YOU can surmise. The lube wad had dried out, powder was caked in the neck and shoulder area for about a half inch then it just poured out. Weighed 103.6 grs I have no doubt it weighed 105 when new but time and disassembly gave me 103.6. Lube wads made of a blended mix of 2 parts beeswax to 1 part sperm whale oil by weight were used in Sharps cartridges ( which were loaded by Sharps and UMC for Sharps).. I have talked to others who have pulled down other original Sharps carts to find about same. The original 400 gr grease groove 45 -2,1" bullet only had 2 very small grease grooves in it with full diameter only about 3/8" inch long it worked because there was a lubewad behind it. When Sharps moved from Hartford Conn. to Bridgeport Conn. Many things changed one of those things was the swing to promoting the 40 and 45 cal carts and dropping 44 and 50's as standard carts. They did that as a money saving step to put Sharps in the black not the red. Moves to standardize production. No one can know all the changes made by.Sharps to their own produced ammo and the ammo they had UMC produce for them or the winchester made ammo for various Sharps cartridges. It's pretty easy to say they did not use plastic wads. Target shooters of the day implemented many changes allways looking for any advantage. Lol my own pet theory on the rise of grease groove bullet use is after they ran out of buffalo and quit Creedmoor shooting not needing big bp carts anymore they found gg bullets to be adequate for short range use. When the better shooters rediscover paper patched bullets and their superior results you will see gg's regulated to also runs. The Mt 1000 was won this year by paper patch. The upswing in shooters rediscovering ppb use has been enormous since 1991 when I started using them to recreate original style ammo. Ammo evolves that in some cases does not mean it got better some need to figure that out..bobw

Edit: the original formula was 2 parts sperm whale oil to 1 part beeswax by weight. The Marine Mammal protection act took away the right to own this oil for all but Alaskan native Americans in our country. Jojoba oil comes very close as a replacement and works well. Bobw

[martinibelgian]

That being said, bullet lube won't stick to parchment paper, won't penetrate it either. It will penetrate and stick to any type of newspaper, even the shiny stuff. If the lube can penetrate the paper, then it can stick all three layers together.

With the parchment wads, there is no chance of anything sticking.

I presume someone told you that, and you never tried that yourself - just put a little bit of lube on a bullet base (or just take a pan-lubed bullet), press it down firmly on a cooking parchment wad (which is aquite a bit less pressure than what's happening when the light comes on) and seefor yourself. As I'm curious and gave your statement the benefit of doubt, I just did that myself and - no surprise - the cooking parchment sticks, even a square inch of cooking parchment can be lifted, sticking to the base of a .30 cal. lubed bullet that still needs the base cleaned.

So unless you cooking parchment is way superior and much more slippery, or your lube not so sticky, I'd seriously doubt your statement and class it under wishful thinking...

[JonnyV]

Ok got out ahead of myself. I will hold to the not penetrating point though. I’ve bribe enough baking with parchment to know that. Further, I do enjoy seeing it flutter down withi a few feet of the muzzle. Newspaper will not seal the base off the same way.

As pointed out above, the parchment paper is a fail safe. My bullet bases get wiped clean before seating with paper towel. No more than 25 rounds per towel either lest it get too much lube on there and not clean well enough.

[martinibelgian]

I'll take that point - but the typical fibre, card or LDPE wad will also do that. and If you store your cartridges bullet down, the lube won't migrate towards the wads

[JonnyV]

I always wondered about that newspaper wad on top of the card/ fiber/ LDPE wad. So the lower wad shouldn't stick, but it is ok that the upper wad sticks? It being thinner and lighter, there is even more chance of it sticking... of course, only applicable for GG bullets, with a PP bullet there's no lube, so no danger of sticking...

OK so now the sheet-stirring really begins LOL....how many of you guys are running grease cookies with PP? What method are you using to make sure the grease don't stick to the bullet? What are your results?

[martinibelgian]

I do, actually - but only for my military rifles (so that's 577-450 and no.2 Musket), as blowtubing only permitted in matches. And the grease cookie sandwiched between 2 (decent) card wads is more than sufficient to prevent lube migration, even when using pretty soft lube cookies. This assuming you don't want to compress the powder via the lube cookie... So you needs to be pretty accurate as to bullet seating depth, the base barely touching the top wad. But then I use neck tension for my military loads