A couple barrel questions

Will Sellit · Post by **Will Sellit** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:35 pm

I have a #3 Hartford on order and have a couple questions concerning barrels.
I will be using this rifle for mostly cowboy side matches which in my area are usually 100 to 200 yards and shot offhand and normally 6 string shots. I like the looks of the Quigley but was mostly interested in a gun that the buffalo hunters would have used that would have been made during the Hartford era. I added the patchbox to the #3 Hartford but went with a 30" heavy octogon barrel because I was concerned the 34" heavy barrel would be to heavy for the offhand 6 string shots. (These shots are scored by hits and ties are determined by time.) I am 6 foot tall and weigh 200# so maybe this is not a real concern.
My 2 questions are:

1) Instead of the 30" heavy barrel would I be OK if I went to a 34" standard barrel to shoot the offhand strings. There probably is not that much difference in weight.

2) Can anyone tell me what the standard finish on the barrel was on a rifle like this back then. Did they have a matte finish or were all barrels a polished blue. All I could find in Sellers book was the difference on how the bluing was applied between Hartford and Bridgeport.

Any comments and opinions will be greatly appreciated.

Troll · Post by **Troll** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:46 am

Answers to your questions as I see them.

#1 I would not go any longer than 32" and heavy half octogon at that length. 30" for heavy full Octogon. Also fouling become an issue for the longer barrels with black powder.

#2 Rust Blue. Same as Shiloh.

kevin harris · Post by **kevin harris** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:28 pm

Any time you deal with black powder fouling is always an issue no matter the tube length. Imo to help with the fouling issue look for a bullet that carries more lube.

Kelley O. Roos · Post by **Kelley O. Roos** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:10 pm

Fouling is not an issue with longer barrels. I shoot 32" barrels and my shooting partner perfer's 34" barrels and neither of us have problems.

Not using a good lube or not enough moisture in the barrel by not blow tubing enough is the fouling issue.

Kelley O.

buffalocannon · Post by **buffalocannon** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:36 pm

I agree with my old friend Mr. Roos. Barrel length is not the issue. I shoot a 34-inch in .45-100 and never load less than 90 grains of black. The amount of good lube you use and the amount of blow tubing you do are the real issues. Pick bullets that carry a good load of lube, and per the good advice given me by another old friend Kenny Wasserburger, blow at least six times. The last time I shot the Quigley, I shot all day both days in the hot and dry without cleaning until all the day's targets had been shot. I cleaned only at the end of the day as did many others. I observed some who ran a patch after every shot but they didn't blow tube. I am now used to the blow tube thing and have never gotten into the running the patch thing because I worry about the bore and crown of a very expensive rifle. These Shilohs don't grow on trees! By the way, some of the old Sharps had 36-inch barrels!

woodpuppy · Post by **woodpuppy** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:12 am

I had read, maybe elsewhere on the forum, about fouling at the muzzle end in long barrels (34") I don't have this problem with my 38" .40 patched roundball muzzle loader, but obviously I wipe in between shots, and clean more rigorously between matches (5-6 shots). (FYI, this is a TC Hawken with a Green Mountain 1:48 replacement barrel)

1. What barrel length, profile, and weight do you prefer for offhand shooting and handling? The aforementioned .40 barrel is awful front heavy, I'd prefer something better balanced. I know longer barrels give you a longer sight radius, but shooting offhand at 300 yards, I think balance is important. (I say 300 yards because that's the longest range I have readily available to me in Tallahassee, FL)

2. Now as to caliber, I lean towards .45-70 for commercial avaiability mostly. I don't want to go bigger because I'm build like my muzzleloader, long and skinny. Heavy recoil is not fun. I eat up shooting an M1 by way of comparison. I wish to shoot jacketed bullets over smokeless powder as well as handloaded BP. Though I don't or haven't hunted, I would want the rifle to be a competent hunter for critters up to Elk. Is this cartridge suitable for Elk, or am I limited to deer size game?

Bumper · Post by **Bumper** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:48 am

WP, The 45-70 can be used for all N. American game. More data, accessories, etc is available for a resonable price for the 45-70 than any other BP cartridge. Barrel length is for many a personal preference that is/can be hotly debated. If you will use the rifle for hunting go to some BPCR Silhouette matches and ask shooters if you can heft/handle thier rifles. Stock configuation (straight/pistol grip), barrel length, length of pull, type of action, weight, and price should all factor into your final choice. Rbump

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:51 am

Many of you have not noticed that this event he is wanting to shoot is timed. Blow tubes are not going to be very helpful. Nor is wiping going to be in the picture.

I would consider the 30" barrel as you have chosen. I don't think you would have a problem hefting a 34" barrel and there is some benefit to a longer sight radius, but I think that benefit will be minimal and fouling can and does affect many of us - including me and my 32" barrel where fouling can be notably worse in the last few inches of barrel.

For rapid fire like this, I would chose the 30" plus I think most of the original Sharps hunting rifles that I have seen wear barrels less that 34" more often than not. Does anyone have any references to what the "normal" Dodge City - off the rack Sharps barrel length might have been?

Brent

JAGG · Post by **JAGG** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:04 pm

Brent ! Mayers used a 32 inch barrel in his 45/120 ! I get fouling at the muzzle in my 25 inch 45/70 barrel the same as my 32 inch barrel 45/70 barrel with the same loads ! Even with my Muzzleloaders in 32cal foul at the muzzle ! This cutting off the barrel to stop muzzle fouling never made sence to me ! One other thing before i started to use a blow tube , i learned from an old movei to blow into the chamber before the next round ! In the movie the sargent showed the recurits by blowing with the TD at his hip ! I bring the chamber up to my mouth and blow directly into the chamber about 15 times fast for best results in hot weather ! Something you dress up shooters can do ! JAGG

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:11 pm

YEah, Meyers' might have but given that this cartridge description is a bit fuzzy and contested and a few other points as well, I don't think he can define the norm - to put it mildly.

I remember looking at a few old heavy Sharps and all of them looked to have 28-30" barrels. Of course, heavier barrels look stubbier but I was trying to account for this.

There is a nice original old 50 as I recall in Shiloh's show room. How long is that barrel?

All this blowing in the barrel business just won't work for well for Will. He doesn't have the time. Also, blowing affects eye sight and that's another issue when you don't have the luxury to wait a moment for eye sight to recover from low oxygen.

Brent

JAGG · Post by **JAGG** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:25 pm

Brent ! There was an article back when in a muzzleloader mag. Where the writer was having a 45/100 built on a sharps rifle, and wad told by the builder that he needed a 34 inch barrel to burn the powder charge behind the 500gr bullet PP bullet ! If i want a large powder charge then i want a longer barrel to get the velocity instead of just more recoil ! A 32 inch barrel isn't going to slow down anybody in this type of a match as he could also just get a 22 inch carbine ! JAGG

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:37 pm

[quote="JAGG"]Brent ! There was an article back when in a muzzleloader mag. Where the writer was having a 45/100 built on a sharps rifle, and wad told by the builder that he needed a 34 inch barrel to burn the powder charge behind the 500gr bullet PP bullet ! If i want a large powder charge then i want a longer barrel to get the velocity instead of just more recoil ! A 32 inch barrel isn't going to slow down anybody in this type of a match as he could also just get a 22 inch carbine ! JAGG[/quote]

Yes, according to Ernie Stallman, this is true, though he told me 32". I have discussed it with him, but I am not sure that it is true nor that it matters that all the powder is burned. He also worries about fouling in long barrels. No where in Will's post did I notice what caliber he was looking at, only that he wanted a fairly authentic buffalo era rifle - the .45-70 would be a good choice for what he wants and perhaps what he has in mind. Velocity will not be an issue, thus shorter barrels are certainly acceptable and maybe even superior to longer barrels. How short is too short? I don't know. But 30" certainly isn't.

The issue with barrel length is not that shorter barrels will handle or shoot faster, but that they will accumulate less fouling and hold their accuracy better than a long barrel when they have to be used without wiping or blowing.

In short, for what Will is looking to do, a shorter barrel would have an advantage in my opinion, and I'm generally a fan of longer barrels. His application just does not need it, and may even be hampered by it.

Brent

powderburner · Post by **powderburner** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:55 pm

in my huumble opinion the fouling issue has to do with loading densitys and compression rather than barrel lenth I have worked up BP loads using Pat Wolfes ideas that will shoot a 20 shot string into a 6 in group without any blow tubing or chambering problems and with minamal fouling as well, and I live in the desert . the trouble with the loads was they were not light match loads but were heavy hunting type loads and used a heavy bullet for the calibre, but they did work in a 30 in barreled 45-70

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:10 pm

Yes, compression is a BIG issue in fouling, but that does not mean that barrel length does not matter since even heavily compressed Wolfesque loads are going to foul. And 6" accuracy is not exactly high precision per se. So, perhaps using a shorter barrel, and a bit less compression would provide 3 or 4" groups.

I too have been experimenting in heavily compressed loads (0.5" or more), and found that they can help a lot with fouling, but they are not terribly accurate either, just moderately so (I get 3" accuracy for 30 shots - I'm looking for 2").

Brent

Luke · Post by **Luke** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:56 am

Will, as a cowboy shooter myself, I would say, go with your original order. The 30" HB will do everything you want to do, and will be within weight specs should you ever decide to shoot shillouette. This weight and finish are probably right in the historical average for Sharps. As for Shiloh today, the Sharps rifle company of the 1870s was a custom shop. Standard sporting rifles had the lower polish blue finish essentialy the same as Shilohs standard barrel finish. The 30" was the factory standard length.

For CAS sidematch shooting with the .45-70, go here: www.the.45-70book.com and get the Wolf book. For CAS, hunting and General purpose loads, these high compression Milspec loads are hard to beat. They will fulfill 99% of your needs, and teach you the basics needed to load for that last %. That knowledge can be found here: http://www.ycsi.net/users/mlventurino/ in MLVs "Buffalo" book.