paper patching troubles

[Kenny Wasserburger]

JonnyV,

You tend to gravitate towards extremes, way to much rubbing alcohol in your wetting solution in my opinion.
Just a bit added to my saucer that holds my sponge with the distilled water.

Immediately after carefully folding the Hyde base over it goes on a coffee warmer, the paper shrinks tight to the bullet. It will not unwrap of its own accord. It has all the appearance of original paper patch bullets I have had the opportunity to examine over the years. Dan and I simultaneously came to the Hyde base method on our own yet shared it in our many conversations. I even delved deep into my rather large archives/library and found considerable information on it in the late 1880s in Articles in the The Rifle. Written by Frank Hyde himself under a Pseudonym of “No Good”.

The goal is to get the paper to shrink tight to the bullet, just as the original manufacturers did back in the day. I have found sizing the patched bullet will help iron out the base found over, and it isn’t a detriment to overall accuracy. The late Jim Kluskins was fond of doing this also.

Deep diving into my own rather considerable archive on my paper patching journey. I have been reminded that my design long straight sided Money bullet of 1.515 inches buffalo arms now carries shot extremely well at Byers in 2016 long range segment. This was in my 16 twist 25# Rifle Dora. This bullet though is .446 in diameter and it also shoots well in my old 18 twist Hell bitch rifle even to 1mile.

For the 25# tighter bore it must be pushed through a Lee .445 sizer die this leaves a noticeable line were the Ogive begins on my bullet. Perfect to orientate the leading edge of my patch. That combo in my Hell Bitch holds the record for top agg score and top score for hits in a single relay of 8/10 @ 1mile. in the hell bitch the bullet is patched as cast however.

Patching is a journey, an attempt to recreate the efforts of the great riflemen of the 1870’s-80’s at long range. Winning national championships in Scope Creedmoor and Midrange is a most satisfying experience when done with PPing. It isn’t however for everyone, as it is a time consuming process requiring patience on one’s part. The rewards are some of the most worthwhile in my own personal experience of shooting these in competitive games. No mater where you go when you open your ammo chest full of 200 of those patched beauties you get everyone’s attention guaranteed.

Kenny Wasserburger

[opencountry]

I really appreciate your view(s), Kenny, on pp'ing. I learn something every time I read your posts. Although, unlike you, I dry-wrap my money bullet (the only bullet I shoot) with 9# 100% cotton paper. I bought a large quantity of it while Buff Arms carried it. If I use up my stock I will be doing exactly what you're doing with the Seth Cole paper, and alcohol, and drying plate, and sizing die.

I 'scratch' a designated spot on my sized 'money' bullet, and place the cotton patch at this scratch (which is @3/32" above the bullet's ogive), and begin rolling the patch very tightly with my 73-year-old fingers. I end up with @3/32" roll-over on the bullet's base. I like to be consistent as much as possible, and avoid any irregularities. I like to shoot for perfection; I'm still working on this
I try and keep the same tension on the patched bullet by always end-trimming after cleaning, and annealing my case mouths (this tension changes because the brass lengthens over time by repeated firings). And, the brass gets harder as well. I keep loaded rounds in 'lots'. I use sizing bushings on the last 1/8" of the case mouths to help maintain the tension on the bullet/brass fit. I really like pp'ing. I was very surprised (very surprised) to have taken 1st place at a 600-1,000-yard competition awhile back. All of my competitors were shooting grease-grooved bullets in their rolling blocks, Sharps and Pedersoli Sharps, and one even scorned me when I showed up with my patched loads. The late Paul Jones helped me win their 200,300 & 400-yd. competitions with his 'Money' bullet in my 45-90 Shiloh. I shoot nothing but Shilohs, (2)16# 110s, and a 12# 90. I shoot only pp. I love it!

'rambling' Robert

[JonnyV]

From MartiniBelgian....

"But always a good idea to try and recover fired bullets to see what needs to be done"




Outstanding advice. I did this. It took a bit of fooling around but I finally got a bullet trap built that would stop a big ole 45 cal bullet in about 8-9 feet and not cause any damage to it. Very enlightening to say the least. I tested around 60 rounds in it so far, and will be testing more as I work on switching over to PP for more of my shooting. Digging out bullets and cataloging them is time consuming but very rewarding.

Between the bullet trap and some target testing, it seems likely that PP bullets might have an advantage as far as BC goes, which might mean an advantage with the wind, and longer range, as well. Much more testing needs to be done. Right now, I'm eyeball deep in loading greasers for the DI match, plus breaking in a new 22 so I can shoot in the 22 match.

[ian45662]

Having the ability to recover bullets can save a lot of time and money for sure. Always nice to see what the base looks like and how for it upsets. I was absolutely shocked the first time I saw how much my projectiles were upsetting when I was able to recover some projectiles.

[martinibelgian]

Having the ability to recover bullets can save a lot of time and money for sure. Always nice to see what the base looks like and how for it upsets. I was absolutely shocked the first time I saw how much my projectiles were upsetting when I was able to recover some projectiles.

I have the same experience with my 45-70 - I went in the past to 30/1 alloy because of limited powder capacity and a I thought bit of upset was needed, but when I recovered my fired bullets which are457125-style, I was shocked to see how much of the nose also had upset to groove diameter, being bore diameter originally. That was with 70 grs of 1 1/2Fg Swiss. Yup, I do need a harder alloy... This is the .460 CBE version of the Lyman Gov't bullet.

[opencountry]

I’ve shot only 16-1 alloy in my 45-110s and 45-90. Is the velocity of the 45-70 not able to make the bullet bump-up/fill the grooves in your rifle’s bore with 30-1 alloy? Forgive my question; I’ve just never had any experience with any other calibers than the 110’s and 90, or alloys softer than 16:1.
I shoot Swiss 1 1/2 in my 45-90, 94 grains. I’ve never recovered any slugs using non-destructive testing. I think what you and others are doing to see if your softer alloys are bumping up is really smart. It makes good sense to me.
Robert
Btw, 94 grains of powder in a 12-pound Shiloh will nearly rattle your teeth, but is certainly is accurate. I’ve proved this load over and over with one-grain ladder tests. I use two recoil pads stacked together. (-:

[JonnyV]

I found that the binary alloys I tried all upset, and the softer they are, the more they upset. What started off as a money bullet ends up looking like a conical by the time it leaves the bore. Not ruling out that some of the nose compression may be caused by the sawdust. The size of the sawdust used seems to matter in this.

After I’m done with the DI match, this topic might be worth a video effort. It would be interesting to see what results others come up with too.

[Don McDowell]

I've found 16-1 to be a good alloy in the 45-70 with patched or greasers.
Keeping in mind that alloy was the one specified by the military at the cartridges inception.

[bpcr shooter]

A BHN of 15 sould cover just about any cartridge from 38-55 to 45-110. Your nose length will also affect "set back". Some of us have started to add small amounts of antimony to our PP alloy (3%) to help reduce this. Changing to a larger nose dia or a shorter nose length would also help.



matt

[monkeyboy]

I just knew that sooner or later that people would come over to the my side and start using wheelweights! If you can find them.

[patchbox]

I have a 5 gallon bucket overflowing with wheel weight cast from a mini muffin tin. I got them analyzed at work with our XRF tool and they are very close to 3% antimony. Another 3/4 full 5 gallon pail with some nuke antimonial lead that’s also around 3%. Tin is gonna get hard to find in the coming years - price is already through the roof. Also came across some 50/50 tin-lead solder bars and bought everything the guy had - after casting in mini muffin tin ingots they filled a 5 gallon pail to over the rim. Four other 5 gallon pails with pure lead. So I’m set for a little while.

[omgb]

I've not had a problem with patches coming undone. I wrap mine damp, stretching the paper a bit as I roll. I have paper long enough to create a tail. I dry the bullets over night, nose down in a loading block. When I use them, I trim the "tails" tight to the base with a set of dikes. Then I load them. That's my experience, but I'm no match champion either.
Reece

[opencountry]

I’m no match champion either; I guess I just got ‘lucky’ once, and was startled that I was at the top when the guns were put away All the hard work working up loads, testing, tweaking, etc. payed off. I wasn’t out to beat anyone; I was just enjoying my rifle(s).

Hey, since we’re on the topic of pp’ing I’d like to ask a simple question: I’ve been noticing others on YouTube loading/seating their patched bullets much, much deeper into the case(s) than myself. I seat my patched bullets @1/4” deep into the case in my 45-110, a little more on my 45-90. I squeeze the case mouths enough to hold the bullet firmly. I see others on YouTube seating their patched bullets to the point that only @1/4” of the paper on the bullet is above the case mouth. In my way of thinking I would think that the paper on the bullet below the case mouth might loosen up and not stay wrapped. Could anyone school me on this?
Robert

[omgb]

I seat mine to just touch the lands. 45-70 or 45-90, I do it the same. Again, Im not a competitive shooter. I shoot a Pedersoli 45-90, a Ruger #1 heavy barrel 45-70 and an H&R Officers’ Model 45-70 Trapdoor.

[JonnyV]

My finished rounds are sized to bump the lands with the DDPP bullet….that means they’re about 1/4” in the case, the rest is out. I have two new barrels being made up for my CPA, one for PP, one for greasers. That PP bullet will set even a little shallower.

There are a lot of people posting stuff on YouTube. A lot of it is half-baked at best. I went back and took down a lot of video off my channel after thinking about things for a while. I think there’s a responsibility to post good information in a proper way. However, YouTube don’t care. Anyone with a camera and some rudimentary editing software can publish damn near anything they please.