Accurate assement

[semtav]

Ian's thread got me to wondering.
How do you accurately assess a configuration.
I've seen DDs math so I know that is suspect, but can one accurately assess simply with math or do personal observations come into play.

DD observes that Paper patch is inferior to Grease Groove strictly by observing shooters that have little experience with his environmental conditions showing up and failing yet never takes into account the GG shooters that also failed.

If you do the math on the average finish of a match, is that an accurate assessment?

Be it PP vs GG, smokeless vs BP, 45-70 vs 45-90 etc.

Just an example, at the Buz Coker Memorial, the average finish of a GG shooter was 16th, the avg finish of a PP shooter was 12th.

What would be a good assessment?
Ian's assessment is his scores improved when he went back to GG, my assessment was just the opposite.

What say ye?

[bpcr shooter]

There may just be more or better shooters in your "test" match shooting PP or GG. But I could see if the same shooter or better yet machine fired 2 rifles that were both equally accurate then if one was "more accurate" it should be shown there.....well if everything was equal, wind, temp, humidity, elevation, etc.

I highly doubt there is little if any accuracy in PP over GG or GG over PP, but there are bullet designs that fly better in certain winds that may attribute to better accuracy.

Finding a smokeless load that will have the SD's and ES's of BP, is going to be very hard to find. If you do, I'd buy a LOT of that powder!

I would say a good assessment would be, If your scores go up with either GG or PP, then so be it, run it! But to say its better because its either bullet to me is an inaccurate assessment

matt

[desert deuce]

LOOK OUT MATT!

Trust me Whenever one observes SEMTAV employing false logic one only needs to fact check the, in this case, the triumverate of points presented to fully understand that his true purpose is to deceive the reader. Naturally in SEMTAV's case he must first deceive himself Which, apparently, is the case here.

Here what he is attempting is to draw otherwise normal folks into his web of self inflicted confusion.

While many report he is a really fine person we have to wonder about him at times. Could be the chemicals you know.

Languishing in landfills may be having adverse effects also.

[JonnyV]

Why not just lube up your paper patches and enjoy the best of both worlds!!?!?

[bpcr shooter]

LOOK OUT MATT!

Trust me Whenever one observes SEMTAV employing false logic one only needs to fact check the, in this case, the triumverate of points presented to fully understand that his true purpose is to deceive the reader. Naturally in SEMTAV's case he must first deceive himself Which, apparently, is the case here.

Here what he is attempting is to draw otherwise normal folks into his web of self inflicted confusion.

While many report he is a really fine person we have to wonder about him at times. Could be the chemicals you know.

Languishing in landfills may be having adverse effects also.

you guys kill me!!!

[semtav]

Another example, is, the Buz Coker Memorial has been won with a Pedersoli Gemmer in 45-70 using Blackhorn 209 and GG bullets the last 4 years. Does this mean anyone showing up with anything else is just wasting their time or could it be Wes just has our number and we actually are gonna have to step up our shooting ability to beat him ?

[Kurt]

I think it's more of the ability of the shooter and the knowledge of the conditions of the home range.
I have shot GG and PP over the years but I find the accuracy falling off faster during the match or range sessions using the GG where the PP are more consistent during range time and the match.

[ian45662]

Honestly I think that they can both made to preform very well. Over the past 4 or 5 seasons I had shot around 2500 paper patch projectiles each year ( give or take a couple hundred). I have improved somewhat with the grease groove bullets on the average from last year but…. Last year I spent a lot of time tinkering with the 38-50 which I have this year also. Things didn’t really start to come together for me this season until I went back to the 45. There is more work to be done with the 38 but with the new Creedmoor bullet I think we are there. I can offer up some statistics from my own shooting. In the 4 seasons I shot diapers the most pigs I shot in a row was 144. Since going to the 45 and grease groove I am at 150 and counting. With paper patch and my highwall I had at one time hit 70 turkeys in a row. Since going to grease the most I have hit in a row is 21. In the 4 seasons I shot pp I cleaned the sticks 4 times. This year with greasers I have already cleaned them once and if not for a mistake at rams I would have cleaned them two days in a row. My highest long range score was with paper patch and that was a 94-3. Over the past weekend is shot a 92-3. One of my shots went low into the 7 ring and I called it so if not for that I could have tied or beat that score. I have tied my highest score in sillywets with paper patch and with greasers which is a 35

IMHO where the grease groove bullets shine might be due to the fact that they are so easy to make. Easy to deal with . I hate to say one is more inherently accurate than the other. They both can work very well.

Last weekend was the first time I had shot a grease groove bullet at a long range match. I used the bullet that Aviator had recommended to me which is the money bullet with 3 reduced bands that baco offered. In 16:1 it came in around 535 grains or so. I have it seated out so that the groove diameter band is pushed about .030
Into the lands when I close the action. The velocity of the bullet is 1330 FPS which is the same speed as the diaper load I shoot. I used the only sight setting I had which was from my paper patch loads and I found the target on the very first shot. I thought that the grease grooves would make the bullet shoot lower but maybe not.

[desert deuce]

Good information Ian, suspect all the applied logic will further confuse SEMTAV though. If that's possible.

Holding a spot on the squadding sheet for SEMTAV starting with the .22 Target Match through the 3 days of 1,000 yard targets IRONMAN.'

Indicated he was coming to shoot the 2024 Desert International. We'll see?

Won't break him any slack though until after I receive his entry materials.

[semtav]

Holding a spot on the squadding sheet for SEMTAV starting with the .22 Target Match through the 3 days of 1,000 yard targets IRONMAN.'

Indicated he was coming to shoot the 2024 Desert International. We'll see?

Won't break him any slack though until after I receive his entry materials.

If I do make it, it would probably only be for the 3 day 1000 yd match. If that's even allowed.

Had good intentions to actually practice all summer with my 45-110, but after a couple weeks of fire forming brass early this spring, sh#& hit the fan and I never pulled a trigger again til my name was called the first day of the Buz Coker Memorial and I shot up a bunch of last year's reloads . Didn't even have enough left to shoot the second day.

Hopefully that will change, but it isn't looking promising. Never know, next time I shoot a gun might be in Phoenix.

[Coltsmoke]

All of this is crazy, my best sillywet score was 36, all the laydowns with 6 chickens, done with PP on the laydowns. 45-70 elliptical bullet. Ian is aware of the rifle and the load we have been in competitions together. Shot many master scores with it. Used oil on the PP, was told that wouldn't work, left the barrel wet, was told that wouldn't work. Now with that being said, shot many master scores in sillywet with a GG money bullet with a Shiloh using a SS Douglas barrel. Shot against 24 shooters, several National Champions, several State Champions, at 6oo yds. 5 shots for score, no spotter, just you and your rifle. Shot a 48 out of a possible 50, put $1200 in my pocket that day. That was a GG bullet. Point is, you can do it with either bullet. Put in the work and time to tune in your load, tune in your fouling control, and last but not least, tune yourself. It might take a year, shooting 50 rounds 2 or 3 times a week, it is not cheap to do. If you really want it, get off this forum choose a known bullet that works and get at it.

[desert deuce]

And there goes Smoke again. Introducing solid factual reality information into a basic fantasy thread.

Let's watch Semtav choke on this one

[semtav]

And there goes Smoke again. Introducing solid factual reality information into a basic fantasy thread.

Let's watch Semtav choke on this one

How could I choke on something that actually makes sense.

[semtav]

All of this is crazy,

Colt, you do realize there was only one reason I started this thread. So far it is succeeding !!

[JonnyV]

All of this is crazy, my best sillywet score was 36, all the laydowns with 6 chickens, done with PP on the laydowns. 45-70 elliptical bullet. Ian is aware of the rifle and the load we have been in competitions together. Shot many master scores with it. Used oil on the PP, was told that wouldn't work, left the barrel wet, was told that wouldn't work. Now with that being said, shot many master scores in sillywet with a GG money bullet with a Shiloh using a SS Douglas barrel. Shot against 24 shooters, several National Champions, several State Champions, at 6oo yds. 5 shots for score, no spotter, just you and your rifle. Shot a 48 out of a possible 50, put $1200 in my pocket that day. That was a GG bullet. Point is, you can do it with either bullet. Put in the work and time to tune in your load, tune in your fouling control, and last but not least, tune yourself. It might take a year, shooting 50 rounds 2 or 3 times a week, it is not cheap to do. If you really want it, get off this forum choose a known bullet that works and get at it.

This is the kind of logic that wins matches. I don't have a lot of experience competing with BP rifles, but I do have a lot of experience competing in another individual sport. The logic is the same. Shooting 50 rounds 2-3 times per week, with all that goes along with it (load prep, cleaning, maintenance of rifle, so forth) probably works out to be about the same as the 40-60 hours per week I used to spend on pool (position drills, breaking drills, watching others, individual match ups, small tournament play). Arguing that one type of bullet is better than the other strikes me a bit like saying that a compressed leather tip is better than a laminated leather tip. Maybe or maybe not... The deciding factor is the effort put forward by the guy doing the shooting.