The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

[bpcr shooter]

Thanks KW.
One thing I can say for sure from having spent more years messing with the dual diameter bullets than anybody, that's a whole nuther can of worms from straight sided patched or grease groove.
There's a point where you cross the balance line between base length and nose length that will cause all manner of grief, or joy.. Base diameter plays another huge part, and it runs headlong into the same thing as getting into the diameter of a straight sided bullet, in that there's no place for the displaced alloy from the lands to go except over the base causing finning. Base major diameter being to long will give you some weird stuff, and to short will give you and unbalanced bullet there is probably no hope for especially when you get past 300 yards.
I'm getting pretty well convinced that the wad stack under the dual diameter isn't quite as critical as with a straight sided bullet. Mostly leaning towards less is better. I'm still working on that when I get the chance, but so far consistent groups are indicating that to be the case
Paper thickness I'm still on the fence about, and believe that will come down to chamber leads and diameters.

Don,
The more I think about it, the 2 most accurate DDPP bullets I have shot to date have VERY little major dia on them.....hmmmmmmmmmmm

[JonnyV]

My point about the twist rate was that everyone here is shooting rifles that are all a little bit different. Different barrel length, weight, twist rate...Different elevations, weather conditions, times of day as well.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

[quote=JonnyV post_id=343288 time=1694707912 user_id=309429]
My point about the twist rate was that everyone here is shooting rifles that are all a little bit different. Different barrel length, weight, twist rate...Different elevations, weather conditions, times of day as well.
[/quote]



That’s a valid point.

Consider I shoot from 1900 elevation (Phoenix) to 6000+ (Raton) Beyers is over 5000 I believe.

Ian gave some hard data, it tends to mirror my personal experience mostly empirical of course.
Bryan Youngberg made mention at my Creedmoor match that the ranch range is one of the best places to learn and gain wind Doping skills. It’s definitely the case in my opinion.

At my match some new longer design bullets were tested, one is trouted as the highest BC bullet BACO offers, it didn’t fair well. I didn’t find out the nose design unfortunately. A super long 40 caliber was also tested. It shot fairly well but didn’t set the scoreboard on fire.

What we primarily are looking at is 2 different nose designs which one is less affected by twitching conditions, one gives us a miss one may only stray into the 8-7 Ring. Ian’s labradar data is rather compelling. Perhaps I need to run some data at Byers before the match just to capture some BC data based on actual velocity and down range velocity on the two bullet nose profiles.

KW

[JonnyV]

My point about the twist rate was that everyone here is shooting rifles that are all a little bit different. Different barrel length, weight, twist rate...Different elevations, weather conditions, times of day as well.

That’s a valid point.

Consider I shoot from 1900 elevation (Phoenix) to 6000+ (Raton) Beyers is over 5000 I believe.

Ian gave some hard data, it tends to mirror my personal experience mostly empirical of course.
Bryan Youngberg made mention at my Creedmoor match that the ranch range is one of the best places to learn and gain wind Doping skills. It’s definitely the case in my opinion.

At my match some new longer design bullets were tested, one is trouted as the highest BC bullet BACO offers, it didn’t fair well. I didn’t find out the nose design unfortunately. A super long 40 caliber was also tested. It shot fairly well but didn’t set the scoreboard on fire.

What we primarily are looking at is 2 different nose designs which one is less affected by twitching conditions, one gives us a miss one may only stray into the 8-7 Ring. Ian’s labradar data is rather compelling. Perhaps I need to run some data at Byers before the match just to capture some BC data based on actual velocity and down range velocity on the two bullet nose profiles.

KW

That's what I'm trying to get at. If someone could correlate actual hard data (Ian's LabRadar plus LabRadar data from others as well), from rifles with the same twist rates, then you could correct for the velocity differences, chart the data on an Excel spreadsheet, and have actual proof as to which bullet shoots better and at what velocity.

So far we only have some opinions (however well-founded) and Ian giving us a couple of high points from his data. No hard evidence as yet. Getting there though!

[JonnyV]

At my match some new longer design bullets were tested, one is trouted as the highest BC bullet BACO offers, it didn’t fair well. I didn’t find out the nose design unfortunately. A super long 40 caliber was also tested. It shot fairly well but didn’t set the scoreboard on fire.

KW

It could easily be that this bullet didn't do well because the load wasn't very good (meaning no disrespect to the person who loaded it). It could have been loaded in a hurry, or without aid of a LabRadar, or could have been loaded with the culls instead of the sorted bullets (seen that before LOL)...we have no idea.

One test don't mean squat. In order for it to be "hard evidence" you have to keep the records (all targets) for future inspection/comparison, and you have to be able to repeat it on demand.

[Don McDowell]

Don,
The more I think about it, the 2 most accurate DDPP bullets I have shot to date have VERY little major dia on them.....hmmmmmmmmmmm

Matt having both a Browning bpcr and a Winchester BPCR, basically same chamber just different barrel manufacturers. I can say with the "long chambers" in either rifle neither will give consistent results with patched. The Winchester especially hates them.
If you're looking at building a rifle for your wife and you want it to shoot patched or greasers, I would highly suggest copying Shiloh's standard chamber or the original Borchardt chamber.
I also like the 11 degree transition from major to minor in ddpp. With the major diameter no more than bore measurement before patching and 1 caliber long.

Bullet nose profile between the money and metford I've found very little difference in wind stability. That mostly comes down to the shooters personal preference, and hopefully the rifle likes it.. I have shot both the elliptical and prolate nosed bullets, but did not find anything exceptional about either.
What might be interesting and this is another area where guys like Distant Thunder are severely missed, is a bullet in the Sharps tapered design going from 450-451sh base diameter down into both the money and metford profile and see what the target at 1000 yards says in windy conditions.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

The super long 45 bullet was tested in a 16 twist barrel, the highest BC bullet BACO offers. The shooter is a past national Creedmoor Scope Champion, knows his chit. Lester tested two other Bullet designs one in a 40 and the other in a 45. He came away from that match saying we guys had cost him $8k in some new guns to play this game.

3 long bullet designs, 2 different shooters…. Lester did get 3rd in the Creedmoor. But no stellar scores, a faster twist was his own conclusion.

All the above is anecdotal evidence I agree, but it showed 3 constant failures, 3 failed tests, sideways bullet strikes are hard evidence of stability issues.

The fact that 3 past national champions were in attendance at my match, of just 11 hardcore longrange shooters, 27% of the match attendance. Is interesting.

For a match that starts at 800 yards.

Past 3 consecutive years I have shot my self into 2nd place at my match, in 21,22 I shot the top score at 1000 yards. With an elliptical nose DDPPE bullet that was a group designed effort on this forum. I believe it still makes this forum the best place to share and disseminate knowledge and information. And to make such efforts.

I am not looking for an edge on my fellow competitors, I am looking for an edge for us all against conditions. Some call that gamers, this is from people too lazy to have an original thought of their own and are stuck in some sort of misguided conception of what was the truth in the past. Edwin Perry’s book is such an eye opener as to still astound me to this day. It was written in 1879 near the peak of the original Creedmoor era. The rifle cranks of the day.

I am going to go cast some bullets.

Kenny Wasserburger

[JonnyV]

1. Lester has plenty of money, no need to feel bad for him Lol!

2. Many of the opinions so far are pointing towards a possible conclusion, however, some of your own observations might contradict that conclusion. In other words, most of the guys on here seem to prefer the money profile. However, you go right into stating that you’ve done very well at your own match with an elliptical profile. It’s basic human nature all throughout our history. People search for ways through obstacles. They search and search for the hole in the wall, and almost everybody fails. Once in a while, though, somebody succeeds. Then, it’s just like that scene from Porky’s…

3. Lucky you getting to cast bullets…I’m out here staining a fence that needs replaced.

[JonnyV]

The other thing not being taken into account here is the human variable. The same guys could shoot the same rifles with the same loads at Kenny‘s range this weekend and the results could be entirely different. This is why one test doesn’t mean anything. You have to have multiple tests of the exact same thing in order to just “start” drawing a conclusion. Maybe at least five identical (load wise) tests would be a good minimum…

[Lumpy Grits]

No mention of fouling control procedures.
This has to be a huge part of the game.

[Don McDowell]

Well assuming most folks deeply into long range stuff
Use great fouling control
There is still the thing about a bullet shooting well at 8 and 900 and getting profile hits at 1000
That sort of thing doesn’t have much to do with shooter variables either

[martinibelgian]

I have shot both designs at long range and do prefer the money. Not sure if that helps you personally but I have also shot both bullets with the labradar and have calculated the B.C. Of the two PP projectiles that I shoot. The money bullet had a slightly higher B.C. Than the elliptical did. Not a bunch higher but it was higher.

Problem is that there are different money bullets. More specifically, different noses. Some are 'pointier' than others.
Mine is of the more blunt-nosed variety, as W.E. Metford designed it. I actually got it from a book of the day which had a drawing. Mine originally was1.5" long, and has been shortened to 1.46, the nose is now longer than the shank.

It performs extremely well at 300m, the furthest I have been able to shoot it. Hopefully it will also perform at long range, we'll see... Another visit to Bisley has been planned, so testing will be during competition.
Rifle has a 16" twist eichelberger barrel, wide grooves, gain twist.

[kwilliams]

Can some one post comparative drawings of the .45 nose profiles being discussed here. The differences may be subtle, and going to a custom mold maker would entail offering up a drawing to eliminate a misunderstanding in cutting the profile. It would be great if the assigned profile names (Postell, Metford, Elipitical, Money, Prolate, Gunn, etc.) all had the same meaning between mold makers.
thanks
kw

[craneman]

I have been chasing these questions for a number of years. I started with the BACO money bullet PP .446 x 1.46 long that Kenny had achieved such great results with and it would perform great...most of the time. I finally determined it would really shoot in all conditions except headwinds would give me fits. Jim Kluskins aka. Distant Thunder and I discussed this at length after the spring Lodi match a few years ago. The holes on the target showed no signs of tipping but we were wondering if the bullet was a little long for the 18 twist or the nose a little too pointy to resist headwind deflection. As I had two of those moulds I sent one to Jim to shorten in the mill. I took the longer and shorter versions to Alliance that fall and shot them interchangeably for testing. The winds were normal, for Alliance but never had a headwind condition to compare. They shot well enough to earn me 1st place on Sunday and 2nd overall so performance was great.
Jim and discussed this the following weekend at the Lodi match after our scores were terrible after dealing with lots of variable headwinds and decided a blunter bullet might improve things. I ordered a BACO mould that Kurt had posted a picture of that is an early alliteration of the money bullet that is much closer to Dan T's original design more of a Metford nose profile. I had that mold made to .446 diameter and shortened to 1.40 length for my 18 twist and it has been an incredible performer, the vertical issues are gone. Admittedly we have become much better at reading conditions as well! This is the bullet and our rifles Matt was talking about, our scores from the last 3 Lodi matches bears out its ability. I have a DD bullet for the .45's but haven't given it a fair shake as I have little reason to at this point!
I'm reluctant to post this picture but here goes. Using Rick Moritz's testing methodology I had to test for my new lot of powder earlier this week. The attached photo is 9 shots at 200 yards, with a fishtailing tailwind, admittedly with a 15x Unertl after adjusting the scope.

Todd

[craneman]

BACO money bullet I started out with on the left 521 grains 15-1 95-5 alloy
The bullet on the right is the Money bullet I am now using. 530 grains, same alloy.
My earlier target photo is after settling on 82 grains Swiss 1 1/2, 45-70.

Todd