The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

[semtav]

money vs elliptical.jpg

Don't have drawings handy, but here is a picture of the original Paul Jones Money bullet vs the KAL Elliptical.


Shot the Money in my 45-90 for a few years with excellent results.
Shot the Elliptical in the 45-110 for a few years with excellent results.
Have never crossed over between the two so can't address Kenny's question.

[Aviator]

Not exactly what you asked, but you might find it interesting anyway.

Today I took some Labradar data from two different grease groove bullets, in two different rifles.
Velocities are the average of 10 shots.

45-70 Shiloh, 16 twist barrel
BACO 459542M5 bullet (Money bullet), 12:1 alloy, ~532 grains

1321 Muzzle velocity
1310 10 yard velocity
1265 50 yard velocity
1212 100 yard velocity
1166 150 yard velocity

45-90 Highwall, 16 twist barrel
BACO 459535P3 bullet (Postell), 16:1 alloy, ~532 grains

1323 Muzzle velocity
1311 10 yard velocity
1266 50 yard velocity
1213 100 yard velocity
1164 150 yard velocity

I have not yet drawn any conclusions.

[craneman]

I am posting the scores from Lodi long range matches from the last two years not to tout shooting abilities but to show an example what a change in bullet has made for us. While as Lee Shaver says "there is no such thing as a magic bullet" there are differences at the velocities we shoot at. Spring 2022 we were shooting the pointed money bullet. I switched to the meford-money style bullet after that match. I changed nothing else, Browning BPCR 45-70, 82grs Swiss 1 1/2, fed 150M primer, Alvin 55-w tracing paper dry wrapped.
If you look at my scores you'll see I'm typically fairly consistent in my scores. You'll also notice my son Daniel's scores improved considerably, we shoot identical rifles and loads, in fact I have a third that serves as our backup rifle that shoots equally as well.
While I don't know if this serves as empirical evidence but has shown me there is a difference in the bullet nose profile when the winds get twitchy.

Todd

[craneman]

Fall 2023 Lodi

[craneman]

It also seems to me that the shooting the pointed grease groove money bullets may not share the same headwind sensitivity experience that I have noticed with the pp version, Aviator and Ian would be a better judge of that than I.
I think the best test would be to have three or four shooters of equal abilities firing from the same point at the long lines using different bullets at muzzle velocities 1300-1330 fps, which I find to be the real sweet spot with .45 caliber. These shooters having conditions called by one GOOD spotter so firing at relatively the same time would give us some real hard meaningful data about nose profiles and GG vs PP.
I think I will bring this up at the Lodi mid-range match in a couple of weeks and see if we can put a test like this together sometime!

Todd

[Kenny Wasserburger]

It also seems to me that the shooting the pointed grease groove money bullets may not share the same headwind sensitivity experience that I have noticed with the pp version, Aviator and Ian would be a better judge of that than I.
I think the best test would be to have three or four shooters of equal abilities firing from the same point at the long lines using different bullets at muzzle velocities 1300-1330 fps, which I find to be the real sweet spot with .45 caliber. These shooters having conditions called by one GOOD spotter so firing at relatively the same time would give us some real hard meaningful data about nose profiles and GG vs PP.
I think I will bring this up at the Lodi mid-range match in a couple of weeks and see if we can put a test like this together sometime!

Todd

Tod you make some interesting observations, noted your more blunt bullet holding up Better in switching conditions especially headwinds. Alliance is a good test bed for long rang accuracy.

Kenny Wasserburger

[Don McDowell]

Todd I have both bullets in your picture in 44 the one on the right shoots consistently better at the 1000 yard

[Kenny Wasserburger]

The other thing not being taken into account here is the human variable. The same guys could shoot the same rifles with the same loads at Kenny‘s range this weekend and the results could be entirely different. This is why one test doesn’t mean anything. You have to have multiple tests of the exact same thing in order to just “start” drawing a conclusion. Maybe at least five identical (load wise) tests would be a good minimum…

3 separate tests in two days, with all 3 having sideways impacts on the target and at various yardages,
I call that 3 failures, sideways impacts on paper are counted as misses in Creedmoor btw. this is obviously something you have never done either.

Jon you’re postulating on shit you don’t know much about. Lester came to the conclusion he doesn’t have a fast enough twist rate to maintain stability for two different rifles and calibers. Michael ordered an unproven bullet that according to theory was supposedly the highest BC bullet yet it proved less than successful. The thing is too damn long for a 16 twist barrel. When conditions died down he fired 15 or so more shots and had 14 hits, fact that in mild conditions it would maintain stability barely.

Sideways bullet strikes are about as sure a thing as there is for announcing stability issues, since you have never shot a mile or… sat in the armored pit we call Lucy, where you can hear the bullets coming in before they reach the target one can hear the difference in a stable bullet and one that isn’t. You’re kinda just postulating from the cheap seats at the moment. Your time has been short in the game, and I don’t recall you Shootings any major long range event that I am aware of, the 805 buffalo at the Quigley I believe is the limit of your experience in Bpcr long range. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on that.,

Lester’s ballistic program is interesting as it claims that his very long bullets are stable in a 19 twist. Not sure what it is but it possibly needs some calculations tweaked because that’s not the case.

One of my main take always is that there is no real program out there that really calculates our bullet stats that well.

KW

[JonnyV]

Well if you can’t postulate here, then where can a guy postulate???

Asking questions and kicking around ideas is how people get ideas, try stuff, and sometimes make progress.

Other than that I’m guilty on all your accusations. I freely admit to being the village idiot.

[semtav]

. I freely admit to being the village idiot.

Oh now DD would heartily disagree with that statement

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Well if you can’t postulate here, then where can a guy postulate???

Asking questions and kicking around ideas is how people get ideas, try stuff, and sometimes make progress.

Other than that I’m guilty on all your accusations. I freely admit to being the village idiot.

Jon,
I asked for people that had long range experience with these two bullet designs to weigh in with their personal experiences. If you have such experience and did post then I will offer my apologies, otherwise i think you should read and pay attention more and post less on this thread. Because you’re not offering what I asked for. They call me the harsh brother, for good reason, so far you have yet to contribute anything remotely about the subject, of this thread.

I have a brilliant idea start your own thread and postulate there. Reading comprehension isn’t always your strong spot, as you leap often, yet seldom look. Or so it seems.

I told you boatails wouldn’t work, I have told you several things that wouldn’t or won’t work. So far I am batting about 1000% on what I said. You? Not so much. Your preconceived comments point out you don’t always read everything. Like asking me something when I told you it was in my book and you said you read it when you obviously didn’t, otherwise you wouldn’t have asked.

That tells me a lot Jon.

Kenny Wasserburger.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Not exactly what you asked, but you might find it interesting anyway.

Today I took some Labradar data from two different grease groove bullets, in two different rifles.
Velocities are the average of 10 shots.

45-70 Shiloh, 16 twist barrel
BACO 459542M5 bullet (Money bullet), 12:1 alloy, ~532 grains

1321 Muzzle velocity
1310 10 yard velocity
1265 50 yard velocity
1212 100 yard velocity
1166 150 yard velocity

45-90 Highwall, 16 twist barrel
BACO 459535P3 bullet (Postell), 16:1 alloy, ~532 grains

1323 Muzzle velocity
1311 10 yard velocity
1266 50 yard velocity
1213 100 yard velocity
1164 150 yard velocity

I have not yet drawn any conclusions.

Did you do any BC calculations with that data? Amazing how close they are even down range. Quite interesting. Is it possible the 12-1 bullet starting slower yet by 150 has moved ahead in velocity, due to bullet alloy or just circumstances?

KW

[JonnyV]

There’s knowledge that you gained because someone told you ….”book knowledge”, and there’s knowledge that you gained because you collected the ingredients and experimented on your own …”hands on experience”.

Kinda figuring I need both, even if it means experimenting with things or ideas that might fail.

Not trying to offend anyone.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

There’s knowledge that you gained because someone told you ….”book knowledge”, and there’s knowledge that you gained because you collected the ingredients and experimented on your own …”hands on experience”.

Kinda figuring I need both, even if it means experimenting with things or ideas that might fail.

Not trying to offend anyone.

There is also listening to others advice, especially so when it comes to be trained in a very dangerous occupation, you wish to live and keep your digits, you did as you were told. Thus profiting from other people’s experience. While this game isn’t that type of thing, there is still the chance to profit from experience. Not doing so doesn’t make you some kind of far seeing explorer, seeking to expand your knowledge, it means your ignoring some good reference material to simply feed an ego.

I am betting you were the kind of kid that was told not to touch the fire, yet you did anyway probably more than once too. that also doesn’t make you bold or exploratory.

Good thing you didn’t work in the oil patch, probably been a fatality inside of a week.

You have solicited my advice multiple times, yet seem hell bent to be almost argumentative, disagreeable. The free preview period is up and there is no option for a subscription. so far you haven’t gained anything to share to the collective, just proved to yourself what you were already told, because that’s how you roll.

I leave you too it, bold pioneer, you’re own your own, don’t ask me anything more, my personal time is rather precious to me, I will choose how I spend it. Besides you’re far smarter than me.

29 years ago there wasn’t anyone to ask we did lots of things Paul Matthews books and the Black powder loading Primer were about all that was available, knowledge was gained by doing, then a few intrepid souls began to share what they learned building our knowledge base. I was there doing just that, you were not.

KW.

[JonnyV]

My wife says I lack "self-awareness"...

I really had no idea that you were getting so frustrated Kenny. Here all this time I was enjoying the conversation and the back and forth. The boat tail thing was a crazy experiment and it was fun. I never thought you would take that so personally. In my mind, you had nothing to do with that (other than predicting the outcome). I apologize for stressing you out like that and I reluctantly will abide by your request and not ask anything of you from here on out. Maybe things might be different up around the bend somewhere.