money vs elliptical

[semtav]

thought I'd start a new thread on theses tests.

Had a little time this afternoon to test out the shells.

Only had 400 yds available to me so just wanted to get some sight settings and a baseline with some back to back shots.

Load was second fireforming cases I had made up this spring.
Everything was the same except the bullet shapes

Norma Brass
Fed 210 Match primer
105 gr Swiss 1FG ( not my normal batch)
.060 LDPE
UNK alloy with antimony in it.
Compressed to same depth

The three shots out in the black were the first three sighters with the money bullet.

The rest of them I alternated bullets. Most of the pairs were one of each shot back to back.

Except for the one low shot the vertical was 5" so just over 1min

The first 4 shots were with the money and had virtually no vertical.

I was only running a bore pig and a dry patch and I think my felts are worn out cause I had to switch to following the bore pig with a wet one, then a dry patch.
May have accounted for the low shot.

Wind was from 8 to 10 oclock, in the 10 mph range with about 5 mph variance.

At this range and wind speed, I don't see much difference, but it was only one test.


.

money vs elliptical.jpg

Loads.jpg

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Who made your Money mould.

I had an interesting experience with my original Jones money at Byers, it shot well at 800 yards both days, no stellar but well. It though is light at only 528 grs. Very twitchy conditions both days. My BACO long Money at 1.508 long has a much more pointed nose and weighs in 10 grains heavier at 538 grs. Didn’t shoot well at 900-1000 yards both days. On the last day I swapped out bullets and replaced with my Dual Diameter PP Elliptical bullet for the 2 strings of fire of 15 score shots each relay. With a 35 minute time for your shots one has to move the sights as you can’t wait for a condition. My bullet comes in at 547.5 gr avg weight at 14.5-1 alloy.

The Elliptical was obviously less effected in the conditions.

This is of course rather empirical evidence and somewhat anecdotal also.

Michael Jackson shot a new 600 grain Elliptical micro mini from BACO at 1.580 long. And did very well with it the first two days. His last day not as well but he had a slightly different load, and perhaps the cumulative effects of the extra recoil may have also played a part.

Kennt W

[semtav]

It's a Paul Jones 45023 that I got from DanT that started this whole PP trek.

Shot well in my 18 twist 45-90.
First 4 shots with no Vertical has me hoping it'll shoot even better in my 16 twist 110.

[Kurt]

This money vs elliptical controversy will keep on going I think for ever.
Dan was a High power shooter before getting into the black powder matches. I think that he was more or less trying to incorporate the .30 caliber long ogive high BC into this game and I feel that the long radius ogive like the money bullet that is almost 50% of the shank length gets to be a problem at black powder velocity and when the rotation decay starts at long range so does the stability more when the wind kicks up. That long ogive radius is like a top spinning some of us played with when we were kids. The short blunter tops stayed up right longer than the long pointed tops that started to wobble sooner.

[kwilliams]

I still would like to see dimensions and drawings that provide some consensus of what these profiles actually are and how they are defined. Not just pre conceived interpretations or general impressions. I know mold makers have leeway when cutting a cavity. Is all this subjective and I am missing something here? Obviously the whole nose profile can be change by its length and diameter.
kw

[semtav]

dant money bullet.jpg

This is my interpretation of a real money bullet.

Problem is nobody uses the same exact copy.
Mine is a .454 dia PP with a 1.46 length.
is that going do make any difference ? no Idea.


Everyone would have to have identical bullets from identical moulds cast with the same alloy shooting in the same gun under the same conditions to get a 100 percent consensus, but then it would still only be 60-40 or something similiar.

somewhere there is a drawing of how that arc was arrived at also, but I haven't found it.


in the meantime we will have to suffer with landfill dichotomy !!

[semtav]

Figure_8_-_Bullet_Specification_Submitted_to_BACO-695x371.jpg

Figure_6_-_Typical_Money_Bullet_Specification-696x463.jpg

These were taken from the texas macs website.
there is no end to the minor differences

[kwilliams]

OK now we are getting somewhere, the ogive in the 2 drawings show a radius, that's repeatable and definable, now if we replace the radius with a parabola or a "ellipse" the nose shape must change its profile and yet the nose curve is still tangent to the given nose ball diameter in the length provided.
I can see how subtle changes could provide a wining shape, change something and its a failure. And of course a .40 by its very size would be a new challenge and require different values, similar but different.
All interesting to a ex draftsman!
kw

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kurt claims controversy over the two nose designs, I don’t see any controversy, just honest questions on down range performance, and the sharing of personal experiences, between the two nose shapes

Bullet weight and length come into play much more than nose profile in my opinion. Especially in certain barrel twists.

My Jones money has the blunter nose profile, actually Dan was looking more at the Metford nose shape which is nearly a twin to the money nose profile Dan eventually Designed. It is an excellent performer at midrange and even to 800 yards. But its weight at 528 grs in 14.5-1 alloy doesn’t lend itself to the best performance at distances past 800 yards. I have tested this a good bit at Alliance and my own match and have verified this multiple times. It casts beautifully and patches up easily. This bullet won me at midrange National championship in 2018 at Raton, in some tough conditions.

Dan designed me an extra long range bullet for the mile match and for my 25# Dora. This was not long before he passed away. It is in .444 diameter and features an Elliptical Nose . Just why he went with an elliptical nose on that one, I do not know.

Dan at that time was also deep into Groove diameter PP designs. These of course take up considerable space in the loaded case just like a Grease Groove bullet, not a bad thing in a 45-110 though

I think had he not passed away, he might of eventually went the Dual Diameter Route, in his designs. I can’t help but wonder, if my DDPPE bullet at the exact same dimensions except with a Money nose vrs the elliptical wouldn’t offer a good comparison too test the two.

My more pointed Money bullet isn’t as good in twitchy conditions as the more blunt Elliptical I proved that at Byers to myself beyond doubt. And they were very challenging, when even Gullo takes a couple low misses at 800 it’s a very difficult condition to shoot in. Even dirt diggers with Grease groove bullets.

My Jones Original Money Designed for Dora shoot well at 800 with no misses day 1 but I took one day two. As did everyone some taking 3. Yet it’s performance at 900 and 1000 yards hasn’t yielded the very best scores.

Bullet weight is also something that comes into play I believe, brother Michael Jackson and I have discussed this in some depth. His Nielsen designed 600 grain bullet at 16-1 is weighing at 596 grs shot extremely well those first two days for him. Yet he mentioned the cumulative effects of recoil were an issue even in his 25# rifle. His bullet’s nose is an elliptical one, with micro mini grooves and is also scaled to fit the tight barrel of his rifle. Ammo issues were his downfall day 3 he ready admitted.

Currently I am mulling over:

#1 have a duplicate mould of my DDPPE mould made .030 to .040 longer in the nose section only bringing the overall length to 1.510-1.520 and possibly increased weight to 550-555 grs. Currently in 14.5-1 it’s at 547.5 grs avg weight which is near perfect in my opinion. Akin to the legendary Sharps bullet weight, yet Judge Henry Gildersleeve alluded too this being only the name of the nose profile and not the actual weight which with the alloys they were using in 1877 were much harder then we are often lead to believe as gospel. 14-1 and as high as 11-1. He said the actual weight was at 540 grs or so.

#2 have the same mould made but with a Metford or Blunt Money nose Not the more pointed one on some BACO moulds. Like Semtav’s drawing. Also .030-.040 longer this would probably weigh a bit less than my Elliptical nose version.

The original money nose is no mystery Semtav’s drawing shows its nose dimensions quite clearly.

Michael Jackson’s Bullet is at 1.580 in length and it’s certainly stable to 1000 yards in his 16 twist barrel. With 98 grs of Swiss 1.5.

My very best scores at Alliance Neb and my own match these past 3 years has been with my DDPPE bullet. Something hard to discredit. Alliance, my range and Byers are extremely challenging to shoot at.

Michael also shared something he has found, which Jimbo and myself have also discovered, that sitting at the bench more sideways to the rifle has mitigated some of the effects of the recoil. Yet one still has to concentrate much more on managing the rifle, and avoiding a flinch. why I am not certain. Michael shoots on the same bench as I do and Jack Odor shot on Michael’s bench also he is of the same opinion now.

This is all good stuff and a bit more cerebral a conversation, something I enjoy immensely.

Kenny Wasserburger

[steveu834]

All,
I have been reading up about the money nose and elliptical nose for my 40-65. I want to get Brooks to make me a mould. Not being very savvy about BP bullet shapes, it’s my understanding that the ball nose of .225 in semtav’s post is the original money nose that Dan designed? How does an elliptical differ size wise in the nose? I have read from past posts that the blunter nose performs better at longer distances in twitchy winds.

Cheers,
Steve

[semtav]

todays test was a complete cluster.

got my dead wind zero 180 out of wack and the east wind made me miss the first few since I had no spotter and couldn't get on the scope to see the misses fast enough. then the wind switched to directly behind me.

A little encouragement once I got on target.
the 2 at 9 were my last 2 elliptical loads followed by the last two money loads in the white.

I had put all new felts on the bore pigs and didn't have to follow the pig with a damp patch so I did get one thing accomplished

test 2.jpg

[kwilliams]

Ok we have defined the money nose now by using 2 radius's, now how is the elliptical defined? A drawn circle when viewed straight on is just that, but start tipping it to the eye and it becomes and ellipse. Ellipses in eng'r are usually descried by the tipped angle, 15,30,45 deg. or what ever, and they are tangent on the major dia. diameter and the nose ball. One would need a optical comparator or other such measuring machine to record and actually measure the perfect winning shape.

[semtav]

I tried to get Rick K to build me a mould with a parabolic nose, but couldn't get it done. Got the formula I came up with somewhere.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Ok we have defined the money nose now by using 2 radius's, now how is the elliptical defined? A drawn circle when viewed straight on is just that, but start tipping it to the eye and it becomes and ellipse. Ellipses in eng'r are usually descried by the tipped angle, 15,30,45 deg. or what ever, and they are tangent on the major dia. diameter and the nose ball. One would need a optical comparator or other such measuring machine to record and actually measure the perfect winning shape.

Paul Jones had exactly that an optical comparator.

BACO’s Elliptical is closer to what Brent D. Referred to as a prolate nose think the end of a football.

Kenny W

[letfly]

AT what range was the last target, 400?