2023/24 Ice Age Postal

[semtav]

A lot of my postal scores over the years have been screwed up by the 5th shot and I'm certain it's been me.

I make a mental note to reverse that trend during actual matches.

[semtav]

5 shot irons sights (group size)

2.630......DAG45-70....Shiloh 74......45-70......66 gr Swiss 1.5.....1-18 twist........GM210M.......SB 540 gr Creedmoor
2.765.......Woody......Shiloh 77......45-90.......72 gr Swiss 2FG......16 Twist.........CCI-BR2........ML 540 Postell
2.960......Mike Herth...Shiloh 74......45-70.......66 gr OE 1.5.........18 twist........REM 9 1/2......Baco 542 DDPP
3.000 .... SEMTAV....UBERTI H/W.....40-50SBN....50 GR KIK 2F.......1-14.5 twist.......Rem 9 1/2 LR.....SAECO 640
3.345.....Mike Herth..Shiloh 74.......45-70.........66 gr OE 1.5........18 twist..........Rem 9 1/2........543 gr DDPP
3.625.....Mike Herth..Shiloh 74.......45-70........75 gr Swiss 1.5........18 Twist........Rem 9 1/2.......Baco 446 money PP
4.000.....SEMTAV.....Uberti H/W......40-50 SBN...51 gr Swiss 1.5.....1-14.5Twist.........UNK.............KAL Money PP
4.250.....SEMTAV.....UBERTI H/W.....40-50 SBN...50 gr Swiss 1.5.....1-14.5 twist.....Rem 9 1/2 LR......KAL Money PP
4.500.....SEMTAV....UBERTI H/W.....40-50SBN.....50 GR KIK 2F........1-14.5 Twist........Rem 9 1/2 LR.....KAL Money PP
4.625.....Mike Herth...Shiloh 74......45-70.......75 gr Swiss 1.5........18 twist..........Rem 9 1/2......Baco 446 Money PP
4.625.....SEMTAV......Shiloh 74.......45-110------105 gr Swiss 1F.........16 twist.........GM210M.......JIM452555E PP`
5.000 ....Mike Herth...RB..............45-70........66 gr OE 1.5...........18 Twist..........Rem 9 1/2......543 gr DD PP
5.100.....Mike Herth..Shiloh 74.......45-70........75 gr Swiss 1.5........18 Twist........Rem 9 1/2.......Baco 446 money PP
6.000.....Mike Herth...RB.............45-70........66 gr OE 1.5...........18 Twist...........Rem 9 1/2......543 gr DD PP
6.250.....Mike Herth..Shiloh 74.......45-70........75 gr Swiss 1.5........18 Twist........Rem 9 1/2.......Baco 446 money PP
7.125.....Mike Herth...RB..............45-70........66 gr OE 1.5..........18 Twist............Rem 9 1.2.......543 gr DD PP
8.125 .... SEMTAV....UBERTI H/W.....40-50SBN....50 GR KIK 2F.......1-14.5 twist........Rem 9 1/2 LR......SAECO 640
8.250 .... SEMTAV....UBERTI H/W.....40-50SBN....50 GR KIK 2F.......1-14.5 twist........Rem 9 1/2 LR......SAECO 640
8.625 ....Mike Herth...RB...............45-70........66 gr OE 1.5..........18 Twist...........Rem 9 1/2 ........543 gr DD PP


5 shots scope (group size)

.682......Woody.......Ballard H/W......45-70........91 gr Swiss 2F.......16 Twist.............CCI BR2..........Wood 550
1.355....Kurt..........Hepburn..........38-50.........62 gr Swiss 1.5.....12 Twist.............GM210M.......... BA 371-358 DDEPP
1.888....Woody........Ballard H/W......45-70........64 gr Swiss 2F.......16 Twist..............CCI BR-2.........540 gr M.L. Postell
1.960....Aviator........Shiloh 74........45-70.........73 gr Swiss 2F........16 Twist..............GM150M...............532 gr BACO Money
2.530.....Kurt..........CPA.............40-65...........60 gr OE 2F.............14 twist............GM150M..............Jim395-415E PP
3.020....Aviator.......Shiloh 74.........45--70........74 gr Swiss 2F..............16 twist.........GM150M.......532 gr BACO Money
3.115....Woody........Shiloh 74.........45-70.........59 gr Swiss 2F..............16 Twist.........CCI BR2..........540 gr Mike Lewis
3.750....Kurt.........Shiloh 74.......44-2.6..............90 gr KIK 2F...............17 twist........CCI BR2...........Sage 509 PP





10 shots iron sights (group size)
2.834......Woody...........Shiloh 77......45-90..........72 gr Swiss 2FG......16 Twist.....CCI BR2.....ML 540 gr Postell
4.126......DAG45-70......Shiloh 74......45-70.........66 gr Swiss 1.5......18 twist.......GM210M....SB 540 Creedmoor
6.200.....Woody...........Shiloh 77......45-90.........72 gr Swiss 2F........16 twist.......CCI-BR2.....ML 540 gr Postell



10 shots scope (group size)

2.035....Woody.......Ballard H/W.......45-70..............64 gr Swiss 2F........16 Twist.............CCI BR-2..........540 gr M.L. Postell
3.425.....Woody......Ballard H/w......45-70...............91gr Swiss 2F..........16 Twist............CCI BR-2..........540 gr ML Breech seat
4.212...Woody........Shiloh 74........45-70................61gr Swiss 2F.........16 twist...........CCI BR2............ML 540 Postell
4.517.......Kurt.........CPA.............40-65.............60 gr OE 2F.............14 twist...........GM150M..........Jim 395-415 PP
4.975....Kurt...........CPA...........38-50...............63 gr Swiss 1.5.......12 Twist............GM210M.......... BA 371-358 DDEPP
5.100....Woody.......Ballard H/W.......45-70..............64 gr Swiss 2F.........16 Twist.............CCI BR-2..........540 gr M.L. Postell



10 shots iron sights (string score)
16.084....DAG45-70....Shiloh 74.....45-70..........66 grSwiss 1.5........18 twist.......GM210M.......SB540 Creedmoor
18.463....Woody.......Shiloh 77....45-90..............72 Gr Swiss 2F.......16 twist.......CCI BR-2.......ML 540 gr Postell



10 shots scope (string score)
8.905....Kurt............Hepburn.........38-50............62 gr.............12 Twist.................GM210M......... BA 371-358 DDEPP
11.951....Kurt...........CPA...........40-65.............60 gr OE 2F.............14 twist...........GM150M...........Jim 395-415 PP

Woodys 10 shot trapdoor

4.542....Woody......Trapdoor..........45-70.......60 gr Swiss 2F.........22 twist.............CCI BR2......500 Baco Govt


Woodys 22 cal shoot (scoped)

4.186(Group).Woody ......Win L/W..................Ely Ten-X

14.272 (string) Woody.......Win L/W.................Ely Ten-X

[Aviator]

This group doesn't fit the standards for the Ice Age, but I'm posting it anyway.

The rifle is my Ferriss muzzle loader, 45 caliber. I'll be shooting this rifle at the Desert International match at Phoenix in a little more than a month.
16 twist Badger barrel
545 gr paper patch bullet, cast from 20:1 alloy, muzzle velocity about 1340 fps
91 gr Swiss 1.5F
MVA tang sight, with Lee Shaver windgage front sight

2.85 inch group, but shot at 300 yards. If you feel like dividing by 1.5 to correlate to 200 yards, it would be 1.90 inch

IMG_20231217_141214921.jpg

IMG_20231218_110635983.jpg

[semtav]

That's an interesting group Steve. Regardless of whether it fits the postal match or not, it's worth discussing. Mainly for the lack of flyers

Regardless of what you are pushing it with, it's still a paper patch bullet.

Something tells me the big problem with most paper patch bullets occurs in the transition area between the end of the brass and the beginning of the rifling. Eliminate that and most problems will disappear.
Yours has no transition nor would breach seated bullets if done properly.

So where are we failing with the rest.

Cleaning my cases after the last match, I kept noticing a translucent scrap of paper in the mouth of the brass.
Having head totally up ass, it wasn't til I was done cleaning that I realized that shouldn't be there. Too late to examine them but I'm pretty sure it was part of the outer wrapper of my patch. Only thing I could think of was the inner wall of the case wasn't smooth enough and was holding the paper.
I switched to polishing the mouth, annealing, and then polishing again.
No paper in my test loads yesterday.

Since I'm patching to groove and lot more paper is in the case, it may be amplified. May not see it in the DD or patched to bore but it could still be there.

[Woody]

Winner, winner chicken dinner. Looks like you are getting that thing to hum. Good shootin Steve.

Woody

[Kurt]

Brian,

If the paper ring is flush on the inside of the case mouth, not above the outside of the case mouth then most likely the case is to tight to the chamber end transition and if there is just a couple thousands of head space to allow the case to get pulled up on that 45º transition if your chamber has it the sharp edge of the case mouth will strip the sides of the patch and hold it. Sort of like using a wood scraper.
If that is going on it might be just enough pressure holding the bullet tighter to raise the pressure causing the vertical.
I checked this putting holes into the snow to see what excess head space does trimming the head stamp down so it increases the head space. What I think and this is just speculation on my part that I don't like to use. I think with the case being a tight fit on the chamber at the start of the 45º transition that case gets puled up on the 45º and slightly rolling the case mouth tight like a crimped case.
I showed enough photo's so I'm not doing this anymore but you can see a shiny ring on the bullet shank when that is going on.
If that little paper ring is on top of the mouth the case mouth it most likely pulled it back from between the case mouth and the gap between the transition causing the ring.
I don't know it that slight crimp raises the chamber pressure enough to have much effect on the vertical or not.
I seldom see a ring on my case with the funnel transitions on some of my rifles unless when I anneal my brass and it gets stretched. I keep my brass .005" short of the transition in my chamber to allow for possible head space.

[mike herth]

Aviator, that is impressive. What is your fouling control technique?

[Aviator]

Aviator, that is impressive. What is your fouling control technique?

Currently using: MPro7 wet patch on a nylon brush, dry patch, fire cap, dump powder, card wad, oil patch, bullet.

[Kurt]

Steve,

What is that target camera you're using? I been thinking about getting one. I cant see the holes through the paper anymore at 200 ydslooking through a 50X scope.
That sure is a good shooter you have. Maybe some of the old-timers that loaded their breach loaders like a muzzle loader did it for that reason.
Kurt

[Aviator]

Kurt:
It's the Longshot LR-3.
I resisted for a long time because it is not a cheap deal.
But, I really wanted to be able to see bullet holes in paper beyond 300 yards, and finally gave in.
Overall, I am glad to have it, but it is not quite as foolproof as I had hoped. Occasionally getting the radio link established is a bit of a nuisance. There is a little learning curve on operation, and sometimes holes can still be difficult to make out, depending on the type of target and lighting conditions, especially if the holes overlap. But seeing holes in paper at 600 yards without a camera is usually futile.....
If you enter the target size, aiming point, and distance, it will calculate vertical and horizontal group size and adjustment to center.
Currently I am waiting on a replacement battery to be sent under warranty, as they say they got a bad batch of batteries and I was one of the recipients.

I have used it numerous times at 300, 400, and 600 yards, and fortunately I haven't shot the camera yet!

They say it will work at 2 miles separation, but I have not gone beyond 600 yards yet. If you armor plate the camera, it likely interferes with the radio connection.

[Kurt]

Steve,
That sure looks like a fine piece of equipment.
I wonder if you knew the transmitting frequency and build a 4or 5 element beam antenna that it might help with the receiving strength. and you could point the beam at the transmitting camera?
I been using a drone that I send down range and set it down or let it hover for a few shots when I get my sight setting.
I have sent my drone out to a mile to check if the Lawrence barrel sights on the .44-77 has enough elevation to reach a mile for the ND Badlands one mile shoot and that worked pretty good.
It was high enough looking down to see the dust kick up by the tree I was aiming at.

[Aviator]

Kurt:
It already has plenty of range (2 miles), as long as you have a clear line of sight between the camera box and the receiver box. They have some sort of directional antenna built into both the transmitter and receiver boxes.
But putting armor behind the camera would interfere with the clear line of sight.
Longshot does have an accessory which would allow armor at the camera. They offer a repeater, which can be placed off to the side as far as necessary, positioned so that the repeater has a clear line of sight to both the camera and the receiver.
If I start using the camera at 1000 yards, I may opt for that option..... flyers do happen.....

[desert deuce]

Aviator wrote: " sometimes holes can still be difficult to make out, depending on the type of target and lighting conditions, especially if the holes overlap."

The word overlap.

Allow me to translate that for those that have not shot with Aviator, (sometimes the holes are difficult to make out when the bullets go through the same hole.)

It's an Aviator thing. You almost have to see it for yourself to understand.

[Aviator]

It's not easy trying to keep up with the ole desert deuce......

[semtav]

Couldn't stand it. Way too nice of a day for December so I just had to go get the remnants of the last match and use up the loads.

First one was my favorite load that has served me so well in the local matches.
Shoots about as good as I can hold.(probably better)

105 gr Swiss 1F
KAL Elliptical Bullet .454 dia
3.375 group

elliptical 12-22-23.jpg

Next was the same load except diff wad and Bullet
105 Gr Swiss 1F
PJ Money Bullet .454 dia
4.750 group


This is the one I was finding the paper in the mouth.
found one in this batch.
maybe didn't polish the case good enough.

Money 12-22-23.jpg