44/77

[VenisonRX]

Been shooting 45/70 and 50/70 for a couple of years now I’m finally ready to order a 44/77. I’ve got a line on 43 Spanish brass. Any issues there? Problem is I’ve been back and forth on almost every other detail but the chambering. My 45/70 is a standard Hartford with a 30in heavy oct, and the 50/70 is a carbine. I know I don’t want a 30 heavy barrel because this isn’t intended to ever be a competitive target shooter. This is for hunting and enjoyment so I’m leaning more towards something a little lighter. Anyone have pictures, tips, or lessons learned they’d like to share? At the moment I’m typing this I’m thinking 26 standard half round, crescent butt (am aware they hurt if you don’t shoulder it correctly), and I will be using my sporter tang sight Mr Kluskens generously made for me so I’m considering no rear sight. Thank you all.

[bobw]

One I ordered is to be 28" hb half rd with a steel shotgun butt. Figuring it to weigh 10-11 #'s..bobw

[VenisonRX]

Bob,

What made you go with the 28in barrel?

[powderburner]

I have a #3 in 45-2&7/8 with a 26 heavy that balances real nice. A 26 in 1/2 round heavy that doesn’t hang as well.
The 44 business rifle really hangs good and carry’s Well in the field. It also works well for gong shoots.
I feel the 28 is a good size for both.

[Nuclearcricket]

I built one on a roller action, sorry about that but I put a 3 1/2 weight barrel on it, 30" long. The rifle tips the scales at 10 1/2 pounds. The recoil is just a bit zippy shall we say. The butt stock is out now having a recoil pad installed. For hunting you will be fine but a long session on the bench might not be much fun.
Brass can also be made from 45-90 trimmed and sized. Once fire formed it will work well.
Sam

[SharpsBig50]

If you’re ordering a Shiloh make sure the brass is compatible. Rim thickness varies between makes and Buy it when you find it.

I’ve got a 30” standard weight octagon barrel with a military butt stock. It weighs around 10 lbs, if I had bought the rifle new I might have tried to make it a little lighter.

[bobw]

Bob,

What made you go with the 28in barrel?

Well #1 I will shoot some steel with it but I didn't configure it to be a target rifle . I had the opportunity to handle and shoot an original Hartford sporting rifle with a 30" std octagon barrel in 44/77 I thought it was a little long and light for a long string of shots. You understand this rifle was a documented ft Griffin gun used in the southern herd hunt. Couldn't help but like it, but I thought if I went to a 28" and a heavy half rd barrel I would like it more, might reduce felt recoil and hold better offhand. My 28" business guns balance well for offhand and feel good when shooting them. So the bottom line is I ordered features you could get back in the 1870's on a Hartford sporting rifle, chambered like an original for the 44-77 sbn to give me Shilohs superior quality and materials in the same 1870's vintage 74. The 30 and 32" guns give you a sight radius using tang sights that every point (.01") on the staff is a 1 moa correction. When you have a 34 or 26 that's not the case. I have those barrel lengths also.
Back then they made far fewer fancy originals than shiloh makes today and most were ordered by well fo do folks. Working guns were plain and hard used. I don't have to use my shilohs to provide me a living . I'm old enough that 10 -12 days of targets in June makes me want to set the gun down and pick up a fishing rod. This rifle will be nicer looking than any I have but I'll still use it. I think just owning and using a a Shiloh rifle or rifles makes you well to do, least ways that's how I see it..bobw

[marlinman93]

I own and shoot two in .44-77SBN, and neither is a Sharps. Both are original Rolling Blocks, with one being a Creedmoor, and the other a Sporter. The Creedmoor weighs the correct 10 lb. maximum, and has a lightweight 34" full round barrel to meet Creedmoor rules. The Sporter is a single set trigger, with a 32" extra heavy full octagon barrel.
I find the long barrels to be my favorite, but I'm not hunting with them. If I did the Creedmoor at 10 lbs. would be my choice as it's light enough to pack easily.
The advice about brass is excellent, as I've scrounged donor brass for years, and mostly the brass that doesn't work had rims too thick. I've used both .43 Spanish, and .43 Mauser brass when I can find it. The .43 Mauser brass had thicker rims, and primer pockets were also a bit deeper. So I chucked the cases up in my lathe and trimmed a small amount off the headstamp, which removed about half the stamp depth and they fit great, and primers seated flush afterwards.

[Don McDowell]

I have 3 Shiloh 44-77’s, my favorite is a number 1 with 32 inch standard weight barrel and chambered with their 7 degree chamber.
If I were to order one with the soul purpose of hunting and plonking Ild likely go with a Hartford shotgun butt and a 28 inch standard barrel, with the 7 degree lead chamber. Have them put sling swivel studs on
You might want to place an order for Buffalo Arms reformed brass.

[Kurt]

I have two Shiloh's in the .44-77 caliber. one is an early Farmingdale and the other is one Kirk build in the Hartford configuration. It was build for a hunting rifle most on here would not build it like it is with the 30" light weight octagon barrel with a crescent buttplate and single trigger. I had Kirk break the trigger at 3# and it's perfect. I don't want to fumble with a set trigger when it's cold and set it off when I'm not ready to shoot.
I had the Lawrence sight put on it and I changed the front sight blade to the original type that Stephen Broud made for me.
The rifle carries well and shoots very good. I took two Bisons with this rifle and one with a .44-90BN and the .44-77 did it job just as well as it's larger Brother the .44-90bn
The Lawrence sight on this rifle I have three preset settings so with just a slight hold over from the hard fixed setting by just lifting the ladder.
The crescent buttplate is not a problem with this 10# rifle. For me anyway. The only thing I wish I did not do is put scope blocks on this rifle. Hunting that scope gets in the way for a quick follow up shot when you need it. I needed a quick follow up shot once and I swore that scope would never be on it again when on a hunt. The barrel sights work very well even if you want to shoot the Quigley Buff at 800 yards.
The Farmer is a #1 30" heavy with a shotgun butt plate.
Quality brass is a problem right now but it can be made from .50-110 or .348 Win. Buff Arms might have some in stock or make it down line line again.

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[bohemianway]

Kurt,

Thanks for the Pics. I was looking for verification on the aesthetics of the Sporting plate on a Hartford plus the look of the Single trigger and 3# pull. I like my originals with that style front sight so thanks for the reminder to make some this winter. Not yet sold on 44-77 yet I am kind of thinking 40-70BN or modern 2.1" variant. Unless 44-77 brass falls out of the sky for me.

Charles

[DaveC]

Here's mine--a Montana Roughrider with a slim half-octagon barrel. Much lighter than my #1 in .45-70 with the Heavy Half-Octagon barrel, but it still shoots like a target rifle. I put the target sights on to sort out the loads, thinking I'd replace the simpler tang sight and the blade front it came with originally afterwards, but I don't think I'll do that now. Hitting stuff is addictive.

MontanaRR 44-77.jpg

SharpsBig50's advice is good. Mine chambers reformed .348 and Jamison cases fine, but I've encountered other cases that have thicker rims that are rather hard to get the lever closed on. IIRC, Jamison had thin and thick rim cases available, for Shilohs and original rifles. I haven't checked Bertram .43 Spanish brass in the Roughrider, as I use it in my Peabody, but Bell brass works OK, if you can find it. Any cases are hard to find (unless Buffalo Arms has just made a run) and loading dies are expensive, but it's a classic caliber and lots of fun to play with.

[J.B.]

I've had a 28" , standard octagonal bbl on a 50/70 Saddle rifle and actually went with a mercury tube in the stock, as much for weight as anything else. It came in just under 10.5 lbs with the tube , so likely close to 9.5 without. It hefted well but always seemed 'too' light in the bbl for me, even for hunting. Admittedly our hills are possibly not as steep as some of yours but in hindsight, I'd have happily done without the tube and had the weight up front in a 28" heavy. The 44 would be heavier still ( more steel.. .446 vs .510) but not by much. That rifle did a little hunting and several gong matches and held its own out past 800 yds. I'd not feel compromised ( beyond my own skill level ) shooting a 28" in a match and the off hand characteristics would suit my build better. A Business rifle seems to have a great barrel contour with more steel than the standard oct. but coming in a hair under the full octagon. By comparison, a 30" standard octagonal on a Creedmoor target rifle in 40/70 ST & reducer comes up to 11.5 lbs. Again this would have been a 10.5 lb rifle sans tube. Some 'reverse' maths may give you some idea. On the calibre 44/77, well.. I'm one of several who find the cartridge very satisfying to load and shoot. All the options for brass that have been put forward would seem sustainable and I imagine the only reason BACo. hasnt had another run ready is they...like a lot of people, are waiting on Starline brass. RMC co. would be another option , though not the least expensive. They do make a good product. Ultimately, its your gun and your choice so 'have at it' as they say. Enjoy the trip...because I cant imagine you wont be happy with the result. Best of luck.
J.B.

[Kurt]

Kurt,

Thanks for the Pics. I was looking for verification on the aesthetics of the Sporting plate on a Hartford plus the look of the Single trigger and 3# pull. I like my originals with that style front sight so thanks for the reminder to make some this winter. Not yet sold on 44-77 yet I am kind of thinking 40-70BN or modern 2.1" variant. Unless 44-77 brass falls out of the sky for me.

Charles

If you favor the .44's the .44-70 Maynard is on a .45-70 case or the .44-75 Ballard is on the .45-90 case.

case.jpg

[VenisonRX]

Sorry for not responding to anyone’s posts very quickly. My three small kids take up a lot of my time and I really wanted to read through them and give them the time and thought they deserved. To be honest I don’t know who manufactured the 43 brass. It’s for sale on track of the wolf. I don’t own a metal lathe so it may be cheaper in the long run to go with Rocky Mountain cartridge? Looks like they run about $7 per piece. Not cheap but less costly than rolling the dice on brass that may or may not work? One problem I did forget were dies. My usual sources and buffalo arms doesn’t have any in stock or are those usually only done by order? I’ve got Mike Venturinos books Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West and his reloading primer. Am I lacking on anything on information with them? I’m not against paper patches but I’ve also never done them. I haven’t really read the sections of those books talking about it.

Seems like 28 and 30 are the consensus for barrel lengths. Is there a noticeable amount of weight different? Still not sure on barrel type. I don’t care for the looks of the half rounds myself but was considering it for practical reasons. How does weight and balance compare between a light oct, round, and heavy half round? I don’t need the lightest gun but probably about 10lbs is where I’d want to be. My carbine is 7 and it’s nice to carry but is a bit snappy when pointing, and my 13lb 45-70 is heavier than I’d like to be. Looking through Roy Marcot’s book on metallic cartridge sharps, none of the pictures really stand out to me as one I’d really want to duplicate except maybe one of the Gemmers.

Kurt, your message reminded me of some help you gave me awhile back. It also prompted me to get the 45/70 out to shoot yesterday. I still have some of those bullets you sent me and I like them quite a lot. No chambering issues with them at all other than my first couple where I think I compressed the powder a tad too much and the cases bulged out on the sides. They still chambered but didn’t just drop right in. I also still had a couple of the round noses left and I was surprised in the recoil difference in going from one directly to the other. Neither was bad but the round noses were noticeably stiffer. The ones you sent are just little sweethearts. So I will be picking up the mold for them when funds and time permit.