Just a few thoughts and some questions to go with them

[VenisonRX]

I should probably start by introducing myself since I’ve never actually done that on this forum before I don’t think. My name is Tom Bradford I grew up in Eighty Four PA just a few miles south of Pittsburgh (where deer hunting was a religion hence my screen name venison is my medicine). After 14 years in the Air Force as a C-130 navigator I’ve since settled down in Mayflower AR where I was absolutely blessed with a contractor job instructing in the simulators. This has afforded me more time to focus on shooting sports than I ever had before.

I’m not a big forum guy and I generally try to stick to my own sphere of influence but I’ve posted on here a couple of times. I’ve also done hours and hours of reading on here and on my own with the copy of Mr. Morcot’s book and MLV’s reloading primer and Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the old west. I’ve been shooting black powder cartridges for only a short two or three years. I own 4 rifles, a H&R trapdoor officers model 45/70, An early Kirk Hartford with a 30in heavy oct and military butt in 45/70, a wolf carbine in 45/70 and the one that started it all for me a conversion carbine in 50/70. I also have an early wolf 63 carbine in .54 cal which was my transition from flintlocks into that 50/70. I’m also a fan of Krags and wildcats. I’ve got a Persian Mauser that had been sporterized with a cut down MG-34 machine gun barrel and re-chambered in 8mm-06AI.

First I’d like to say thanks to all of the guys who’ve helped me get started. Kurt and a few others really got me going when I was struggling with a few things. I also still owe a picture of the necklace that I made my daughter. I think it turned out nice so thanks for that too.

Now on to some things I’ve been thinking about and some questions that have been running through my mind. Being in central AR I’m in sort of a black powder vacuum. Even with my slick job I still have three small children at home and my wife is a Pre-K teacher so my time is still somewhat limited. There’s not many folks out here that I know to talk to about it so I read and then leave my thoughts to rattle around in my own head. Everyone I know that’s much of a shooter is into whatever new PRC flavor of the month is. I really wish they’d stop reinventing the wheel on these things. Just soaks up brass, powder, and primers for the rest of us. Mauser already did all of this stuff 100 or more years ago and sold them in Scandinavia, Spain, and South America. This isn’t anything special or impressive here. What they didn’t do PO Akley and Roy Weatherby did. We need more people like them and Bill Ruger in the world. My second favorite style of rifle behind the sharps is the No. 1. With regards to black powder specifically, where do we see things going? I’ve been looking into ordering my first new to me shiloh. Don’t get me wrong, I think 45/70 is great and honestly I’m having a hard time justifying another chambering since objectively speaking it ticks all the boxes of very versatile, easy to load, and kindof available components, but I would like to explore something different. I’m looking for a rifle that really has two primary purposes. One is I don’t compete, this will be for hunting and fun and I’ve received a few words on this already from folks on here that helped steer me. The second is really I want something that I can spend some time with and learn and use as a take everywhere kindof rifle. I don’t need it for deer season this year or anything so I can afford to take it slow and figure it out before I ever try to place a living thing in front of it. I thought I wanted 44/77. I like the looks of it alot, I like the history behind it, seems like a dead ringer. I’ve also considered 40/70 straight, 45/110, 50/90 (short lighter bullets and maybe the twist to go with them) and the 40/82 shiloh. The problem I run into and I think anyone coming into this new will also run into is finding the necessary components. Brass and dies are just unavailable for a lot of it and doesn’t look like they ever will be for some of them. 45/70 is a big enough challenge. So where do we see things going? Thankfully goex is back in action. We all know about large rifle and magnum rifle primers… I know RMCC can make a lot of the brass but their prices are hard a hard pill to swallow and then there’s still the problem with dies. Is it really worth new guys going for things other than 45/70, 45/90, 50/90, and maybe 50/70 or the rounds that can be made from those cases. I like reading all the creative ways people have come across their brass in the past. Unfortunately that won’t work for us newer guys anymore for the most part. I’m asking this not only to benefit myself and my decisions but in hopes that others will read all the responses and be able to get into this hobby. How do we approach things moving forward? All of these cartridges are cool, really cool in fact. We’ve all been to the range with one of these rifles and nobody is walking over to ask any of the guys shooting whatever flavor of AR-15 (though to be fair if Biden doesn’t want us to have it I think everyone should have it) they have to ask questions. I’d hate to see them go back into obsoletion again with just the 45/70 and 45/90 left. Or is it really too late and people should start going for stuff that’s easier to get into? Hopefully I don’t sound like I’m whining or complaining here, just trying to ask practical questions for uncertain times and I’m curious what the perspective is on things from guys who are more plugged in to the sport than guys like myself are. I really look forward to reading all the responses and I hope it makes for some fruitful discussion whatever direction it goes. Thanks fellas.

[bobw]

Sent you a pm Tom. Bobw

[bpcrshooter62]

How about a 40-65 ?

[bohemianway]

In an effort to contain the choices one can consider the following:
1) I see Sharp's as an early adopter of BP cartridges prior to 1873 (after that time 44-40, 45 Colt, 45-70 etc. became the "modern" cartridges).
2) This limits your choices to 40-50 BN (uses 45-70 brass), 40-70 BN (uses 45-90 brass), 44-77 BN, 50-70, 50-90, and not for fun 40-90 BN and 44-90 BN
3) This also limits you to Hartford style configurations (Military butt, crescent butt, or target model (Shiloh's Montana rough rider")

Using the pre-1873 criteria really down selects for you and the 40-50 BN, 40-70 BN, and 50's are relatively easy to get components for.

Keep in mind it takes a long time to get a custom ordered Shiloh (Ordered one in March 2021, began build in April 2023, still waiting).

Charles

[bobw]

Charles I have seen more than a few original checkered steel shotgun butts on Hartford built rifles.. bobw

[bohemianway]

bobw, Target models yes, but it would be nice to know if there are pre-1873 straight grip, shotgun butt, sporting rifles, lettered as such. It would open up for a more comfortable rifle within the pre-1873 criteria.

Thank you,
Charles

[Clarence]

Venison,

There is a strong tension between practical cartridges and those related to the romance of history at some particular point in time. Cartridge case availability is a significant issue, as you pointed out; cases for many of the cartridges you mentioned are less available than a few years ago. There is no indication that they will become available in the future, with the exception of turned cases, which are extraordinarily expensive.

One thing to remember is that many of those cases do basically the same thing as those that are more available.

My suggestion for your consideration is to select a caliber that has readily available cases. Those include the .45-70 and .45-90 (no longer cases are needed for your identified use) and the .40-65. Either the .45-70 or .40-65 will do anything 99% of all shooters need, have readily-available components, and are readily marketable when/if you decide to sell them.

I am a fan of the .40-70 Straight, having had 3 of those rifles. My current rifle is chambered for the Hornady, 405 case shortened, which was readily available at the time I had it built and for which I have 500 cases for my lifetime of use and for the next owner of that rifle. But, with those cases not available currently, I would not build in that caliber now.

Hope this helps your thinking.

Clarence

[marlinman93]

My two cents worth.
If I was just starting down this road, I'd first begin by trying to find brass for my various options. With the lack of brass these days for even more common cartridges, it would be sad to buy a rifle and then find out brass is nearly impossible to find. I think the .45-70 and .40-65 (which can be made from .45-70) would be the best options.
I reload for a large number of oddball cartridges, and have done so long enough that much of my donor brass was easy to find back when I started. The very easy to find Hornady .405 Win. brass that I load for 4 of my Ballards in .40-63, and two Remingtons in .40-70SS was once readily available. But now Hornady decided to drop it, and it's also impossible to find. Not an issue for me as I've got maybe 800 cases, but I'd sure not choose it today if starting out.
Another cartridge that's not the best for long range work, but would be an excellent deer cartridge, and cheap, plentiful donor brass is available for; is .40-50SS! I use either .303 British, or .30-40 Krag brass, and have never spent over .60 cents each for new brass, and much less for once fired. The .40-50SS combined with a 300-370 grain bullet will stop deer well, and is a very pleasant round in any 10 lb. single shot rifle.
.38-55 might even be something to consider, and with a fast twist and 300-315 gr. bullets would also be a agreat deer cartridge, and easier to find brass and dies for.

[bpcrshooter62]

well i never thought of that but you are very right and i have well over 500 303 brass in a box lol

[patchbox]

Well, after reading these posts about the difficulty in finding brass, even in the so called common cartridges such as the .45-70 and .45-90 I’m glad I stocked up a few years back when it was easier to get. Had I not done that I would be completely out of luck.

[marlinman93]

Well, after reading these posts about the difficulty in finding brass, even in the so called common cartridges such as the .45-70 and .45-90 I’m glad I stocked up a few years back when it was easier to get. Had I not done that I would be completely out of luck.

I thought I was well stocked for the .40-63/70 Ballard with .405 Hornady brass. With Hornady making it, and me seeing it for sale pretty cheaply all the time, I just wasn't worried. Then I began hearing rumblings from guys who hadn't stocked up and were looking for .405 brass for their .40-63's and their .40-70SS chambered rifles! Of course I immediately went searching, and quickly discovered whatever brass was still out there had been purchased by speculators who had jacked the price from under $1 ea. to $3 ea.!
Then about a year ago or so I got a call from a friend who told me that Gary Reeder Custom Guns had gotten a backorder they'd made to Hornady of 20,000 rds. of .405 brass! I immediately called Reeder and was told they did have some, and were limiting purchases to 500 pcs. per customer. Surprisingly their price was less than $1 ea. and I got the maximum 500 pcs. from them. In maybe 2-3 days their entire stock was long gone.

[patchbox]

Well, after reading these posts about the difficulty in finding brass, even in the so called common cartridges such as the .45-70 and .45-90 I’m glad I stocked up a few years back when it was easier to get. Had I not done that I would be completely out of luck.

I thought I was well stocked for the .40-63/70 Ballard with .405 Hornady brass. With Hornady making it, and me seeing it for sale pretty cheaply all the time, I just wasn't worried. Then I began hearing rumblings from guys who hadn't stocked up and were looking for .405 brass for their .40-63's and their .40-70SS chambered rifles! Of course I immediately went searching, and quickly discovered whatever brass was still out there had been purchased by speculators who had jacked the price from under $1 ea. to $3 ea.!
Then about a year ago or so I got a call from a friend who told me that Gary Reeder Custom Guns had gotten a backorder they'd made to Hornady of 20,000 rds. of .405 brass! I immediately called Reeder and was told they did have some, and were limiting purchases to 500 pcs. per customer. Surprisingly their price was less than $1 ea. and I got the maximum 500 pcs. from them. In maybe 2-3 days their entire stock was long gone.

Man, you were lucky or blessed or both. Yeah, I hadn’t bought or searched for brass in about three years. It’s just not out there in the chamberings we want.

[VenisonRX]

You guys have certainly laid down the dilemma well. A dichotomy between practical and form. To be fair I believe without having Roy’s book in front of me, no shiloh will be an exact match to a the early hartfords for the simple matter of the hammers being closer in resemblance to the later Bridgeport ones. A minor detail to be sure though. I do recall reading shotgun butts were made though I’m not sure if any lettered ones specifically mentioned being built as hunting rifles.

A few things that were brought up and also further research helped me find out. Does Buffalo Arms still do runs of some of these or are they backordered until further notice? What about Bertram brass? I noticed they’re out of stock but still technically offer some of them like 44/77 and 45/110. By the way their website claims to have 50/70 in stock if anyone is looking for it.

I really never spent much time considering the 40 calibers. Part of me wanted something bigger/I’ve heard 40/70 is difficult to get to shoot/and now that I think about it, I was a bit curious how much weight a rifle would gain for differences in bore size, for example with all other things being equal would say a 30in barrel lose a pound for every .05 caliber of bore diameter? I don’t really have an apples to apples comparison at home. The two carbines are both basically the same but one is an original, the other a shiloh. Not sure what difference the conversion frame makes or the old vs modern steel makes (my guess is this is playing somewhat of a part in it). The 50/70 is noticeably lighter though. Not sure why the 40/50s and the 40/65 never really entered my mind. 40/70 and 40/82 were the only ones that I really considered but only briefly and I don’t have a good reason to reject any of them other than they’d make for a heavier rifle to lug around. Krag brass is a real challenge to find right now. I’ve had some backordered for a few months but Hornady does still claim to make it. Never really looked at trying to order 303 British before. I know it makes a decent backup for Krag if you’re willing to live with a slightly shorter neck.

[Clarence]

Marlinman,

I also was fortunate to get 300 rounds of the Hornady brass from Gary Reeder.

Clarence

[art ruggiero]

the shiloh 40/82 shoots great needs 45/90 brass and easy to form 45/70 is very versatile 300 gr. bullets to 550 bullets don't pick a caliber till you find at least 300 brass order a shiloh now min deposit and pick your rifle when you get your build notice art