Had a pretty keyhole

pete · Post by **pete** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:08 pm

So I'm trying to work up a good load with a Lyman 457132 Postell and am having a hard time. I want to keep all the lube grooves covered but experimented with different primers and powder charges in the .160 to .240 compression range with little success. So I decided to just start at the .125 compression range and work up (Should have done that from the start).
So I loaded up some with 63gr of Goex 2f with Win. mag primers since that's the primer that's worked the best. At 200 meters I couldn't get a hit on the board. After playing with the sights to no avail I moved the target to 100 yds. Two shots hit a little low and 3/4 in apart. I thought that they still should have hit the target at 200 meters. But I moved the sight up a little and moved it back to 200 mters again. The next shot hit at the bottom of the board and left a real pretty silhouette of the bullet. I upped the load to 69gr and had no keyholes but the group was a pitiful 7 1/4 wide and 8 in high for 5 shots.
I gave up on that bullet and tried some Saeco 745's that I bought at a gun show. These aren't well cast bullets at all but they shot 4 3/4 high and 1 3/4 wide for five shots with fluctuating head and tail wind. The Saeco's are 1.338 long and the Lyman's are 1.416 long. I din't chrono the 63 gr loads fut with 66 gr I got 1156. Any body else heard of this problem.

pete · Post by **pete** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:21 pm

If I take too long submitting here I get kicked off so I get in a hurry and only add to my bad spelling. Another thing is that I've heard of this keyholing problem at longer range like 500+ yds. But not at 200 meters. If these bought 745 bullets work better I thought about getting that mold but I heard there can be a problem with lube since they have small shallow grooves. Maybe a 457125 style bullet would be better?

BuckeyeShooter · Post by **BuckeyeShooter** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:23 pm

Pete, I assume your shooting a 45-70 since you didn't say. I cast the 745 for my 45-70 and it shoots real well. The lube carrying ability was a concern I had with this bullet but with good blow tubing it even worked well at Kenny's shoot in Wyoming in the extremely low humidity that they have out there. I think you'll start getting better results when you get up to 70+ grains of powder. Remember Goex likes a lot of compression. I'm using a load of 72 grains of Goex 2F with a .060 poly wad in a full lenght sized W-W case. I also think you should definitely get away from the mag primers. I'm using a Remington 9 1/2 at this time. This load will shoot MOA if I do my part.

Tasmanian Rebel · Post by **Tasmanian Rebel** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:36 pm

Pete, I have an accurate load with the Postell bullet. However, I bought 3 of these Lyman moulds before I got a round bullet that shot well. I use a Lyman postell with 70 Goex Cartridge. This is compressed a good bit (approx. 400/1000ths) and I'm using wax paper wads, WLR primers, Black Magic lube, and Remington cases. The bullet is seated to where only a hair of the first grease groove is showing. The first driving band just kisses the rifling with this OAL. Rdnck keyed me onto this load last year and it works for several of my friends also so it seems to be a generically accurate load. Sounds like you need to go up on the compression. Good luck!

ironramrod · Post by **ironramrod** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:17 pm

Tas R.

When using wax paper wads, do you use 1 thickness of wax paper or do you use several thicknesses stacked together? I assume it is 1 thickness, but I'm not sure I have ever seen that mentioned anywhere. Additionally, do you cut your wax paper wads with a wad punch? If so what do you use for a backing for the punch so the edges of your paper wads stay sharp with no tears, rough edges, etc?

Regards

pete · Post by **pete** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:11 pm

Buckeye; You're right it's for 45-70 I forgot to say. As far as primers go I've tried the Fed. 215 mag., Win mag. and CCI bench rest and the Win mag has done the best. But I'll take your advice and try some std. primers and see what happens. Probably Win. LR for now. I want to try these 745's some more and if they work out better then I'll order a mold. Especially since these are cast shall we say a little substandard. Sounds like you get it to work for you and from the lube standpoint too.

Taz; I went to 69gr of 2f but it still would group. Either the mold might be goofy like you had or this rifle just doesn't like it.

Both of you guys said increase the compression and I guess I'll just have to give it a try. For some reason I've shyed away from heavier comp. maybe because there's a few gun writers that frown on it. But there's definately other guys like you that have had good luck with it too.

So do you guys think this key holeing is a little unusual at 200 meters? If 66grs of 2f gets 1156fps then 63 is probably in the low 1100's or high 1000's. You would think it would still be stabalized at that range. I guess not though.

Thanks alot guys.

Rickd · Post by **Rickd** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:58 am

Pete, re compression and Goex. Redneck (who tests powder for Goex) and Kirk both recommend approximately .350 compression for Goex to shoot well. Try .350 and see what happens.Good shootin!

Tasmanian Rebel · Post by **Tasmanian Rebel** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:03 pm

Ironramrod, I use one thickness of wax paper and I punch these out clean and sharp with a punch that goes on my press I got from Buffalo Arms. Good luck!

Omaha Poke · Post by **Omaha Poke** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:09 pm

Sounds like you may not have a fast enough rate of twist in the barrel to stabilize the the bullet. Randy

Tasmanian Rebel · Post by **Tasmanian Rebel** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:17 pm

Pete, like you I initially had some trepidation on compressing BP. I think some of the fear was thoughts on reloading smokeless but BP is an entirely different animal I found out. I good place to start is to fill the case completely with your powder of choice by just scooping this up level with the case mouth, then pour this amount on a scale to weigh it, then pour this amount from a drop tube followed by compressing it (with a compression plug-not the bullet!) just enough to seat the wad and bullet. Guns are different but generally Goex like compression in the .300 to .400 range and Swiss does better with with 0 to .2 compression most shooters report.

JAGG · Post by **JAGG** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:08 pm

Hard bullets that are under sized and won't bump up to fill the grooves will key hole ! What are your groove diameters and what is your alloy ? I found this out the hard way many years ago ! JAGG

pete · Post by **pete** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:39 pm

Omaha Poke; I'm shooting my Shiloh #3. 1-18 twist.

JAGG; The alloy is 20-1. It's Midway certified alloy and I haven't slugged the barrel but it's the factory Shiloh barrel. As a side note my hunting loads with a Lyman 457193 shot good with a pound of 2f Swiss I bought awhile back (I didn't use a pound in every round

) I don't have any Swiss left so I'm trying to get the Goex to shoot good since I can get it locally.

Taz; I loaded up a few rounds with .330 comp. which amounted to 73 gr. so I'll see what happens if I can ever get a semi calm day.

Tasmanian Rebel · Post by **Tasmanian Rebel** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:47 pm

Pete, I'm betting this will shoot better. Looking back over your posts, I see no mention of using a blowtube. Air can get really dry in Colorado so I'm assuming you are blowing at LEAST 2 or 3 good breaths between shots.

deerhuntsheatmeup · Post by **deerhuntsheatmeup** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:00 am

Sometimes things are not what they seem.

For instance, 2 weeks ago at the Gobbler's Knob range I was doing load testing as I reported on the Goex Brd. I was shooting a load that had been good to me before with a slightly different bullet. The first 2 shots seemed to keyhole. My spotter asked me to come look and I did. I could not believe what I saw. It bothered me enough that I got on the 4 wheeler and rode down range and looked up close. This is what I found.

The paper target was stapled onto the heavy cardboard with some slack in it and the 1/2 inch space between the target and the cardboard made the paper target tear instead of having a hole punched in them. I stapled them tight and no more problems. I was wondering how I could have 2 keyholes almost touching each other and now you know, the shots were less than an inch apart and the illusion of a keyhole was just nothing to worry about. This may not have been your problem, but I thought I would make you aware of it. FWIW Later, David Barfield

PS Keith, They show alot of promise, let's shoot soon!

Tasmanian Rebel · Post by **Tasmanian Rebel** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:54 am

Barvid, I've been trying to contact you but heard from Squire you've been out of pocket recently. Call me when you get a chance.