1877 wood?

[Kurt]

With the 1/20 ROT he will be hampered a little with the bullet length with that 1/2" freebore. But the .45-2.6 he will get a little more velocity and this will help with the bullet lengths some.
The 1/16 T/L alloy is good. A little hard for hunting but even it will do the job.

[vikingsword]

Well, let me ask you this, would I better myself by extending this chamber to a 45-110?

[semtav]

I don't have any problem with freebores,but unless this is strictly a hunting or experimenting rifle, I'd just spend a little extra money and get a good barrel with a 16 or 18 twist and chamber it exactly like you want it.


Making it a 45-110 won't do much.

[Kurt]

Right now I would put that fine piece of wood on that rifle and find out if it's broke before fixing something that aint broke.

[vikingsword]

I can live with a suggestion like that. Leaves a lot of room for experimentation. This rifle for me is a possibility to shoot in competitions at the longer ranges with the extra muzzle energy to reduce more of the rainbow trajectory of the 45-70.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Anyone cheering you on to use a barrel with a 20 twist and 1/2 of free bore isn’t doing you any favors.

Get a new barrel in 16 or 18 twist, and as Semtav said the chamber you want.

Your stated purpose as for long range competition, you will not be happy with the barrel you currently have for the purpose you’re stating.

If you like frustration, wasting powder and lead and primers, you got the perfect storm in that barrel.

Kenny Wasserburger

[vikingsword]

Thank you for the response Kenny. I have set in front of this barreled receiver for an unhealthy amount of time, trying to determine what could be done to make this barrel a shooter. I have not ruled out replacing it out right, but since I have it, and it's not likely going to be very desirable to most out their, I have to ask this, between the excessive free bore and the 20 twist rate, which has the most drawback? Free bore can be improved by either extending the chamber to a 45-110 or, removing the barrel, turning off the head and threads, and refitting this barrel and rechambering to a better free bore, an operation I would have done by Shiloh. The twist rate, is what it is, and if it's going to be a drawback, even with fixing the free bore, then the only fix is going to replace it! These are the calculated decisions going through my mind. I'm hoping for just a little more insight to these considerations while I look into the cost of a new barrel, or machine work on this barrel.

[powderburner]

Bill bagwell had no problem with the 20 twist.
As long as you stay with a length of bullet it will run which is around 500 gn it will shoot as good as you will.
When you get to the point you need a tighter twist and your skills and interests seem to shift to dedicating a gun for a specific purpose you can screw on a new barrel.
Get er dun and get to shooting. Then if you need to change do it.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Bill bagwell had no problem with the 20 twist.
As long as you stay with a length of bullet it will run which is around 500 gn it will shoot as good as you will.
When you get to the point you need a tighter twist and your skills and interests seem to shift to dedicating a gun for a specific purpose you can screw on a new barrel.
Get er dun and get to shooting. Then if you need to change do it.

Right…… I remember Bill getting that twist, yet he never shot in any major match with it, as he received it after his only 1 Attendance at Raton.

So please point me to the national championship he won with that twist. I won’t be holding my breath.

The thing is mucked up to begin with, the first best cure for this problem is a new barrel. As Semtav said, a 110 chamber still leaves you with more than .200 of freebore. Which has its own problems to deal with. I don’t like wasting time these days with a problem child. After my accident in 2014, I tend to cut through the BS, and go straight to the solution of the issue. I don’t like wasting time. Powder and lead and primers are costly these days, and my time even more so. So I don’t encourage others to step down a rocky path.

As I said before, those that are cheering on aren’t doing you any favors.

Kenny Wasserburger

[powderburner]

While I understand your affinity for fast twists and pointy bullets and their relationship to 1000 yard target matches , this does not mean the rifle will not shoot.
20 twist 45 cal rifles are way less pone to fouling
And have the accuracy potential to shoot proper length bullets.
The free bores can be made to shoot
Are they optimum for long range target, maybe not, but how many people put in the time to work with them to see. Most just read about the latest and greatest and go from there.
Neither of which is wrong. Just different paths

[Kurt]

That chamber Vikingsword has was most likely chut with the intend shooting the .45 jacketed bullet like the Hornady 350 gr interlock flat point and it would shoot very well in that chamber. I have a Pedresoli Quigley rifle that Cabela stocked when Pedersoli first shipped them chambered in the .45-3-1/4 and it has a bunch of freebore around .400" plus and I used a creedmoor nosed groove diameter PP bullet that reached the 1000 irons with out problems.
Most of my .44's have 1/19 twists and I seen 18 twist and fast twist .45's with less hits at Alliance and the Quigley and a couple other long range paper matches.
No I never won a National Match, I don't shoot them but I have seen some of the top National Champ shooters below my name at the end of the Quigley so I feel my 19 twist .44-90 bn and the .44-77 will stand up against the faster twist rifles.
Bill Bagwell was a shooter, a fine shot and we spent a lot of time talking bullets and loads. We talked bullets and alloys and the subject was on the Lyman 457-121 PH a lot of times because he knew I favored it for a hunting bullet and he said he shot with a guy shooting the .45-110 at long range on a windy day and his 110 had a hard time making contact where his 121 PH stayed on the iron. Bill liked his slow twist Shiloh. I have 17 and 16 twist .44's and I see no difference in what they are capable of.

VW just has to load and shoot his rifle to see what it is capable of for accuracy. His best bet will be a groove diameter PP with a Medford type profile or a Creedmoor nosed around 1.350" long. The blunter nosed will have weight and will hold stability. If it takes the shooter spending time sending bullets down range to find a load it is a plus he will learn something doing it.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

[quote=Kurt post_id=345314 time=1704991184 user_id=1788]

Most of my .44's have 1/19 twists and I seen 18 twist and fast twist .45's with less hits at Alliance and the Quigley and a couple other long range paper matches.
No I never won a National Match, I don't shoot them but I have seen some of the top National Champ shooters below my name at the end of the Quigley so I feel my 19 twist .44-90 bn and the .44-77 will stand up against the faster twist rifles.
Bill Bagwell was a shooter, a fine shot and we spent a lot of time talking bullets and loads. We talked bullets and alloys and the subject was on the Lyman 457-121 PH a lot of times because he knew I favored it for a hunting bullet and he said he shot with a guy shooting the .45-110 at long range on a windy day and his 110 had a hard time making contact where his 121 PH stayed on the iron. Bill liked his slow twist Shiloh. I have 17 and 16 twist .44's and I see no difference in what they are capable of.

[/quote]

So you keep mentioning the Quigley match, it is a fun time I returned there this year myself.

It isn’t a real good measurement of accuracy, it’s an all sitting match, with a single offhand target. 805 yards is the longest distance, where quigley ends Creedmoor begins.
Bill Bagwell was my friend and we shot together several times at my range, the bullet you mentioned shot fairly well, at the distances we shot yet it took a very good spotter to get him on target as I recall. Perhaps he failed to mention that? I know he set a range record at my 600 target 48/50 yet he refused to do what I gave him for a wind correction. Anyone shooting iron sights and arguing a correction from someone with a 27X scope who sees exactly where you just hit, suffers from hubris and has a bad case of it. After the shot he admitted he should have done what I had told him to do. As he would have had a perfect score, Sidra gave him a sound chewing out. His friend had offered to spot for him to give him the best chance of Winning the midrange match, which he did.

Did he ever mention that? The morning your talking about and bill reference too, I had just finished 6 nights of graveyard shifts at the and had drove 130 miles too meet him at my range. not a wink of sleep in almost 20 hours. The next day was the match, perhaps Bill failed to mention how I shot that day? Or perhaps he failed to mention the groups I shot at 800-900 yards testing Express with him at my range? On a separate occasion.

Bill used that bullet at Raton the one time he shot a Raton Creedmoor he made master, yet he was far far from the winners circle.

Now….aren’t you t fella that tried some sort of lube bullets were dipped into sheep tallow at a match some years ago? I seem to recall a fella with a 50 caliber cleaning rod and his 40 cal jag pulling lead out your barrel like ribbons of lead at the Shiloh match. Perhaps you remember that, that guy helped you? Maybe your memory fails you on that one. As I recall my score at that particular match was very far above yours. And silhouette isn’t exactly my forte.

Do you remember badgering me at the quigley this year? Asking stupid questions as to what you had ever done to me? And I kept telling you to walk away. I have several witnesses to that exchange, Brian Haffey, Jimbo Ed Himmelhoch.

Bill was good at telling part of a story, and then you tell even less of the story. Seems to be a running trait of yours and yet you got the gall to ask why. Just another example as to why I feel about you.

I despise people giving bad advice that as old bill was fond of saying “will wad them up for a few years.” Bill used to get on me for sharing what I had found saying, “they will use that against you in a match and maybe beat you.” That was probably Bill’s greatest failing, in otherwise a good guy. He acted like it was some rite of passage in Bpcr perhaps you do too?

I want to share what I learned and shorten the learning curve for other shooters. And not “Wad” them up. That’s a quote not my words

I got bad advice from several on here including Bill when I started PP, and others. In 2007. After finding out that the undersize bullet and my fouling regimen were giving me a miss dirt digger every 3rd or so shot, I nearly quit after spending a lot of money to go to phoenix to shoot. After that crash and burn from bad bad advice on this very forum, I definitely got wadded up. Gave me a whole new perspective on my so called friends, even the guy I got all that lead out of his barrel.

In 2008 I set a world record group in Pedersoli’s 5@200 5 shots in 1.336 inches. Most of what Info I got from Dan Theodore got me to that point. By 2013 I dragged out my old Hell Bitch rifle for Phoenix with a .446 money bullet I designed with wet patched Seth Cole paper, win the Scoped Winter national’s the last day after 800-900 I was setting 3rd overall with PP. I went on to Raton and won the Scope Nationals there in the same year.

Bill did help me get a load worked out that I can load and shoot for hunting with that undersized bullet and thick paper. And a big 3/8 inch grease cookie but I have never shot it past 200 yards in my Business rifle it certainly isn’t a target rifle load it’s at best a 2.5 MOA load. But it’s killed 4 buffalo. I have tested it to 17 rounds one after another with just a couple breaths into the breach.

Wadding up Viking for a couple of years is about all the advice I am seeing here, I personally don’t like that.

So Kurt…. You look yourself in the mirror and ask your self why, and do not bother asking me again.

Kenny W.