ladder test distance

[40-65rl]

If we ever get out of the deep freeze I will be running some 45-70 through my CPA doing a ladder test. Seems most of the talk centers around shooting at 200 yards. Is this the magic distance? I have a very nice mid range that has 200, 300, 400, 500 and 600 yard berms to shoot on and a great friend in Michael Rix who marks the hits and runs the targets. I, of course, do the same for him. I'm inclined to shoot at 300, find the best then shoot at 600 to see what they do, My ladder test will be for the lay downs only as I have a very good chicken load already. what do you think?

[ian45662]

I have often wondered this myself. I could shoot 3 and 400 yards at the range where I do load development but when doing load development, I want to try to eliminate variables and conditions are one of those. IMHO 300 yards is where conditions can start to have a more drastic effect on our projectiles...... I say START because it gets worse after that, or at least it seems that way. If its dead calm then 300 would probably be a great place to test.

[steveu834]

I have done mine at 200 because I don’t have to worry about the wind too much and I think the bullet is stable then. I do like testing on steel at 400 once I get a good load. I can see the shots with my 20x Unertl spotting scope but past that the mirage can be a problem.

[desert deuce]

Well, basically, at 200 yards I can see .38, .40, .44 & .45 caliber bullet holes in the spotting scope on the paper if the mirage is not really strong.
Even at 200 yards light to moderate variable cross winds can disperse groups laterally while face and tail winds can push them up and down, yet they pretty much stay on the paper. AND, the longer the projectiles are subject to these winds the further they move the impact of the bullet. At 200 yards I can self spot and score the shots shooting by myself. Shooting at full size targets at match distances would be lovely but in my world a luxury seldom afforded. Yes, I have and have tried a Bulls Eye Target camera, quite unreliable.

About all one can determine shooting from 50 or 100 yards is the bullet came out of the barrel, however, a fairly accurate wind zero can be established at 100 yards if the correct technique is used.

Experience tells me it is the vertical that matters. I have seen (5 shots .78" 300 yards)(1.5 inch vertical at 600 yards for 14 shots) and (5 inch vertical at 800 yards 8 shots) (4 consecutive shots on a 5 inch shot spotter at 1000 yards.) etc. etc.

Past 200 yards I surrender the paper and go to a steel disk. Spray paint is cheap. Score the shot without getting out of position. Batteries not included.

[desert deuce]

Silly me, I forgot to mention:

Experience tells me it is the vertical that matters. I have seen (5 shots .78" 300 yards)(1.5 inch vertical at 600 yards for 14 shots) and (5 inch vertical at 800 yards 8 shots) (4 consecutive shots on a 5 inch shot spotter at 1000 yards.) etc. etc.

All of those groups were accomplished with grease groove bullets and black powder.

[letfly]

Greetings DD, do you by chance have a picture or more info on your 1/4'' gun? I struggle and would like to see the light!

[RB1Shooter]

When ladder testing for new loads I start at 100 yards. I use 100 yards because I found I have less influence from conditions (light & wind), my range is flat and I can see my 2" bull clearly using either iron or scope sights. Based upon what I know and have read from others experience, I will choose an expected "sweet spot" and load 3ea. loads, 1 grain difference, for 2 grains either side of the expected "sweet spot" load. EG: 45-70, 1 1/2 Swiss, expected sweet spot 63 grains, test loads of 61-62-63-64-65. After said test, I will measure the results, to find my smallest group and measure Stdev's.

Using the load with the smallest group, I will then conduct a 5 shot test centered around that, +/- 1 grain in 1/2 grain increments. EG: 64 grains smallest group. Test #2 would be 63-63.5-64-64.5-65 grains. Again, measuring said results for group size and Stdev's.

For my final test, I will take the smallest group and do 3ea, 7 or 10 shot tests on the smallest group and +/- .3 grains. EG: Test #2 showed 64.5 with the smallest group. Test #3 will be 64.2-64.5-64.8 grains. Again, measuring results for group size and Stdev's. Group size wins with the smallest Stdev's the tie or really close breaker.

From there, I am ready to test at 200-300-385-500 meters and if required, I need only to make minor tweaks from there. How effective? It seems to work for me.

Item of note: On test #1 & 2, I seem to notice that as I approach the sweet spot, my vertical becomes less and I get a bit more horizontal. However, it could be just me, I test shooting off sandbags on a bench using my normal shooting hold. Also, accurate group size measurements are very important.

"There are no shortcuts in match, BPCR Silhouette shooting."

[bpcrshooter62]

RB1Shooter I do my load testing the same as you do pretty much anyway and I to find that starting at a shorter distance there are less variables to deal with. Keep shooting and having fun

[letfly]

Hi All, at 63gr of 1 1/2 swiss in a 45-70, do you compress with the bullet ? I use a PJ 540 grain and a .030 veg wad seated to cover all grease grooves . I have been using 58 gr. with about 1/8 compression. I test at 625 yards and get about 9'' 5 shot groups on a good day. Shiloh 30'' heavy with MVA 6x.

[letfly]

Oh, W-W brass.

[RB1Shooter]

Lefty: Like yourself, I cover all GG. I use .060" circle fly veg. fiber wad with note pad paper on top of that. I compress using a compression die, never using the bullet. I will apply . 001"/.002" neck tension, just to keep the bullet in place.

It seems to work for me. And if you are worried about the wad sticking to the bullet base, use a colored paper for over wad paper, you'll find them within 3 to 20 yards in from of shooting placement.


"There are no shortcuts in match, BPCR Silhouette shooting. "

[letfly]

RB1Shooter, what kind of groups are you getting at 500-600 meters or yards? I can get 3-4 shots in 5'' at 625 yrds, but the one or two flyers open the group to about 9'' .

[desert deuce]

LETFLY WROTE: "Greetings DD, do you by chance have a picture or more info on your 1/4'' gun?" More info? Careful what you ask for.

Guessing you are inquiring about the 5 shots, .78 inches at 300 yards? Yes, that was quite an unusual happening to say the least and the telling of it would not be meaningful without the run up to that event.

Having a keen interest in shooting black powder cartridge rifles in target competition and engaged in shooting as many matches as possible along with a scattering of silhouette, post retirement, I had heard rumors of a special run of .45 caliber cut rifled Green Mountain barrels about 2011-13, from Gunsmith acquaintances. The concerning part was the rumor also said they were out of production. After a few email and phone calls I failed to find any blanks available.

On a follow up call to John King in Kila, Mt, he suggested I call a contact of his at the Green Mountain Factory, which I did. On a call back that contact said he had located two. I bought them both and had him ship both to Kila, MT. Now the search for suitable actions to install them on. First was a #3 Remington the other a forged Ballard Pacific both of which I sent to Kila. John barreled the Hepburn then sent it off to Mike Jennings for the Bastogne Walnut wood from Cecil Fredi to be fit and finished. John finished it up with MVA front and rear sights and tweaked the trigger some more.

I received the finished rifle in late February 2014 and immediately started load development. The idea was/is for this rifle to be a combination midrange/long range target rifle for competition. As received the rifle weighed 12 3/4 pounds and looked like it belonged on the long lines. The workmanship is exceptional to my eye because I view a target rifle as a tool, not so much a pretty little thing. Fortunately, this was at a time when the weather was suitable and ranges (Plural) were available so shooting could take place several times a week. Lots of trigger time.

Long story shorter. Load development was quite encouraging and many pounds of Swiss and Goex (CTG & Express) powder was expended and the rifle was showing a preference for a particular Paul Jones 4-groove $ bullet and the Saeco #745, both sized .4575 eventually, with 2F Goex Express.

On the day of the subject event at the end of May 2014 I was at Tucson Rifle Club West of Tucson Arizona. At that time and place I had set up two target frames with bullseye targets (2) on both in front of the pig line. (Ranged 300 yards) Shooting prone from Xsticks I commenced shooting and noticed that the smoke from the shots lingered which indicated little or no wind. I did not recall the temperature or humidity which usually means it was a nice day.

Fouling and sighting shots on the pig swinger then move to the sighter bullseye targets, Saeco #745 on the left set, PJ $ on the right set. 5 record shots after sighters with both bullets. Through the spotting scope I could see the bullet holes in the white with the $ but not so much those in the black for the Saeco. So, in the truck and down range and new targets. The record target for the Saeco #745 measured just slightly over 3/4 inch max both vertical and horizontal and obliterated the X in the center of the target. Stunning! This was before cell phone cameras for me.

So, now I am guessing that you want to know the load data? Maybe?

Rifle Remington Hepburn, Green Mountain 17 twist cut rifled barrel. Load, 45-90 Starline annealed and fireformed brass, not sized. Trimmed to 2.395". Primer WLR White Box, 77.0 grains of Goex Express, Lot #02-20/06MY15B, trickled, Saeco #745 bullet, 1-20 alloy, sized .4580, 3.150" COAL, Pope #1 lube, wipe 2 arsenal patches 50/50 Audi anti-freeze with distilled water on a nylon brush. Swab chamber. Average velocity was checked another day at 1265 fps.

This event again reaffirmed that the results with these rifles depends heavily on the shooter. As much as pulling the trigger, if not more so, as in load development. Just how much the barometric pressure, alignment of the planets or phases of the moon figures in to it is subject to conjecture. No, I intentionally did not mention Coriolis effect.

[letfly]

Thank You, DD. ''trickled'' means little compression? 1/16-1/8''? I do appreciate your time to respond.

[desert deuce]

Maybe too much detail for some, hopefully enough detail for others.

I consider compression the distance the hand loader intentionally reduces the powder and wad column height with a compression die. I do not use a bullet to compress charges. I simply drop tube the charge, put the desired sized not lubed bullet on the charge and spin it a couple of times. Measure that COAL without wads. I already know the desired final COAL is 3.150". I then, in this case, added a 1/25 card a 1/60 veg wad and 1/30 ldpe wad against the powder and compressed the combined powder charge with wads until the test bullet reached 3.150" final cartridge overall loaded length when finger seated on the compressed charge with wads. I did not make final note of the wad column and rarely note compression depth with Goex, I just increase compression until I see dragons' blood in the case mouth area immediately after firing. Dragon's blood is a red residue appearing inside the case, the more the better. It may indicate a more complete powder burn at ignition.

Trickled in this case means: medium slow speed 20" drop tube for that particular load. Using the pan from the Redding balance beam scale trickling is accomplished. Belding & Mull powder measure and powder charged weight trickled up to weight from an actual Hornaday powder trickler. The aluminum drop tube had an aluminum funnel JB Welded to top and a reverse flanged piece of copper tubing JB Welded at the bottom to fit .40-.45 Caliber case mouths. Which all means the actual drop distance, should one have desired to measure it, was probably closer to 24" than 20".