Lettter from a Marine in Iraq

[Omak Cowboy]

Sharpsman, you got THAT one DEAD ON!

Ah, kids!

Some years back a neighbor asked me about my servant who works in my garden. A bit perplexed I asked what he ment by my "Servant'..he said "you know, the woman'. I answered that the "woman' was my wife and that she was not Viet Namese but an AMERICAN of Japanese ancestroy.

He was still befuddeled and so I asked him what his ancestry was. He had no idea his people came from somewhere else. Still confused I had to explain that parts of my family came from Bavaria, Scotland, Canada and were also Lakota.

He just couldn't get it, even when I said that our contries enemies, in a nation sense, were now friends. I mentioned Germany but he had never heard of WWII and Hitler. Guesss that's an Urban Ledgion too?

More on Pershing later

[Ray Newman]

Sharpsman: SNOPES says that:

“We haven't eliminated ruling out the possibility that Pershing at some point chose to deal with a group of ‘Mohammedan fanatics‘ in a manner similar to the one described above, but so far all we've turned up are several different accounts and nothing that documents Pershing's involvement. '

There is nothing in the statement that says Pershing didn't do it, they just don't have the proof, which is why I mentioned it to Omak.

While you say that SNOPES doesn't know history, maybe SNOPES would say that you need to work more on your reading comprehension skills....

[Kelley O. Roos]

Just remember, a Marine can't fight if he's not turned loose to fight, words will never kill an enemy.

The way our society is we aren't supposed to fight, the saying,"Why can't we all just get along comes to mind". Even if provoked we're not to do anything, just sit and take it. I remember as a kid, if I got into a fight it was between us fighters, and who ever lost, took his lumps and that was that. Now lawyer Daget gets involved, so watch out for the law suit's..

Kelley O.

[Ray Newman]

KO: there IS a great deal of truth in what you are saying.

[Capt. Call]

It looks to me that once again we are making our troops fight with one hand behind there back!

This is going to cost Bush his re-election and with Kerry in the White House things will be back to the Jimmy Carter years in no time.

When are they going to learn that when you Politicize a war you are prolonging the War!

It is time to take off the gloves and end this thing now!

And by that I don't mean " Shoot and ask questions Later "

I mean " Shoot and don't ask Any questions! "

[Ray Newman]

This discussion ’bout General of the Armies Pershing caused me to do some on-line research.

Omak: if you have information ‘bout Pershing’s solution to the insurgency question, you should make it forthcoming. From another urban myth page:

“Comments: According to Dr. Frank E. Vandiver, professor of history at Texas A&M University and author of ‘Black Jack: The Life and Times of John J. Pershing,’ the above tale is apocryphal. ‘This story is hard to stop!’ he wrote in answer to my email query. ‘I never found any indication that it was true in extensive research on his Moro experiences. This kind of thing would have run completely against his character.’"

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/b ... rshing.htm

As an aside, the General is buried in Arlington w/ a simple grave stone & near many WWI troops. Scroll down the below link for a picture of his gravestone.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/b ... rshing.htm

[Omak Cowboy]

Ray, et all,
I spoke with the family historian for that branch of my people. He confirmed that it did happen and the story had been passed down of a first hand account in his family for many years.

I know at least some of that familles military history and have absolutely no, repeat NO, reason to doubt them.

I can tell of another Moro story too but I'll save that one for later on.

The problem is that there are no "movies" of the event, no still photos. So for those who demand proof I very much suspect there is no way to satisfy such a request.

I had heard, some 34 years ago that said dirtballs were wrapped in pigskins, hung and their bodies thrown to pigs. By the sensitivities of the 1990s and now such would be very problematic, however I have met men who served in the early part of the 20th century and can completely believe they would do this...and a great deal more, I should add.

So in the end those who want to believe it can, those including I"m sure many academicians may well chose not to. Doen't hurt my feelings.

I do think it would be a perfect answer to those *********s who cut off peoples heads.
Laurence

[RMulhern]

Ray

<<While you say that SNOPES doesn't know history, maybe SNOPES would say that you need to work more on your reading comprehension skills....>>

I knew EXACTLY what SNOPES stated! What PO's me about this is that folks want to quote SNOPES....like they're a living God and that THEIR WORD....is FINALITY!

[Ray Newman]

Omak that’s’ too bad that you only have an oral history to rely on.

I wouldn’t be too hard on the academics who demand some type of proof. Otherwise we’d have a whole slew of revisionist historians on both sides of the political aisle & the truth would be lost. Witness the former Soviet Union & how w/ ea. regime change, history books were re-written & photographs altered. The Japanese gloss over WWII & portray themselves as the victims. Look @ Jefferson. The genetic tests showed that a Jefferson male did have Black children, but the tests can’t show whether it was TJ or his brother. According to TJ’s alleged Black relatives, the test “proves” that TJ & Sally Hemings (spelling?) had children & gives veracity to a family story --that still may or not be true or they fell into the trap of saying what people wanted to hear.

[Kelley O. Roos]

OmackCowboy,

You said there's was no movies, well there is one and if my memory serves me correctly, Gary Cooper was the star and I think he played a Doctor and had to take command. The U.S. Army was fighting the Moro's and in one part of the movie a Moro was captured and in order to get him to talk he was put in a pig's skin. That poor captive couldn't talk fast enough. I don't remember the name of the movie as I saw it about 30 something years ago. I like old movie's and remember odd things in some.

What was stated as truth about what Pershing did,I have no clue weather it's fact or fiction. It could very well have happened and some other officer under Pershings command had done it and Pershing just happened to get the credit, who knows, the shadow knows.

Bye the Bye, do any of you know how Pershing came to get the monicker Black Jack? I know


Kelley O.

[Ray Newman]

KO: he was the CO of the 10th cavalry, an all Black unit.

What do I get as a prize?

I want something nice....

[Kelley O. Roos]

Ray,

Thats not fair, I knew you'd know. A prise, how about me? I could be the son you never wanted.

Yep and Black Jack took San Juan hill,with the 10th., old Roosevelt charged Kettle Hill and then turned and charged San Juan. Pershing had the harder job.

Kelley O.

[Omak Cowboy]

Kelly, we are one in the same as I love the old black and white films too. Grew up on them. Interesting as you mention the Gary Cooper film. My feeling is that if it was show it very likely happened as there would be no senstivities at the time to now show it. I recall Cooper also played Alvin York and as I remember it the movied was pretty much on track with the real person, also the one shooting incident in which Alvin shot the last man first and worked his way to the front of the line.

Now on achidemics; On balance I agree, we must have proof in sofar as it's possible to obtain. My wife is a PhD and regarded as one of the premier scientists in the US, perhaps in the world. So I'm no stanger to that line of thinking.

On the other hand there are some things we are never going to have absolute proof over. The Sally Hemigings issue is one such. I've heard it said that IF TJ was the father it must have been by rape. I'm deeply offended by such claptrap. If we believe this we also must belive TJ though that Sally was only a piece of property to use as he wished and that any feelings of love between the two must have been impossible. Nonsense!

I've been chasing my own ghosts in history for nearly 40 years. My reserch in Okinawa history as it relates to a Chinese connection and the intersection of the two cultures which lead to what we now know as Karate, has long been an interest of mine. I've had letters to and from the PRC as well as contacts on Okinawa. Sadly I may know more, certainly at least as much as any western person. I sad "Sadly" as my by standard I know very little.

The development of "The Way of the Empty Hand" has had profound effects throughout Asia. Without Karate there would be no Bushido and without Bushido there could not have been a Samurai culture as we know it. Without Bushido, the Samuria culture and the concominient Stoic society, much of the face of Asia and the history of the last 400 years would be changed beyond recognition.

One of the key personalities of this play was known as Daruma, aka Ta Mo, aka...it goes on. Ta Mo was actually a name for the third son of a Brahman from near Madrass, India. It is said he left Madras to travel over the Himilaya mts and ended in Loyang, China which at the time ( 537 Ad ) was well in excell of one million in population. The abililty to service that level of population was far beyond ANYTHING in Europe for at least 1,000 years. But Ta Mo did not travel, at age 67, over the mountains and along the Silk Road - because the Silk Road had been closed for over 500 years. I'm sure he went by boat....but to my knowledge no one has ever written of this.

So you can see, while it's not exactly an "Urban Ledgion" the mountain route is certainly the accepted line of thinking. Oh and some years back I had a Proffessor of Asaian History tell me Shao Lin never existed- though I have the photos from the PRC to prove it.

Once again I am reminded of G. S. Patton who said "If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking.

As you can see, Kelly O. is right... my mind tends to wonder.

[Kelley O. Roos]

Omack Cowboy,

From my understanding of Okinawain karate, studied some of it when I was stationed on Okinawa in the mid 60's, 64 to be exact. The Japanese took all weopons away from the Okinawains, so basicly the farmers and fisherman developed their own style of Karate.

Ole Alvin York just kept touching them off as he said.

Kelley O.

[Omak Cowboy]

Kelly O.
Yes, you are correct in what the Japanese did to disarm the Okianwa people. It happened first about 1609 with the Tokugawa clan and as a result the Satsuma sent people south from Kyushu to occupy mostly Naha and Shuri and wring out othe population in order to build and army to overthrow Tokugawa. As history shows...didn't work.

The Okinawaian people, as far as I've been able to answertain, made contact with China in 1372 and from there learned To - Te ( Tang Dynasty Hands) . Now there may have been an indeginious system before, though I suspecion is that if there was it was probably based on grappeling and not anywhere near the science it later became.

Shoshu Nagamini, whom you may have met, and sadly is now passed, was pretty much "the" historian on Okinawa. He lost nearly all of his reserch in 1944 when we invaded this island. The good news is that he had a good memory and was much later able to give at least some account of what he had learned. Too, there were people returning to the island later after the war, and these people had taken family scrolls off island so that little bit was preserved.

Hohan Sokan lived much of the war in Argintina and later returned. I don't know if he wrote a book but it is said he was the last to study in Fukien at a temple. That's still unconfirmed. I believe he made a little money as a photographer but I don't know if any of his works...if there are any and IF my memory is correct - survive.

If you have any questions on this I'd be happy to tell you what little I know.
Laurence