Hi guys, I’m thinking of rebarreling my .45-70 Browning BPCR to .32-40 WCF. This would be specifically for 200 yard bench shooting with black powder only, no duplex loads. The goal of consistent MOA at 200 and not the occasional “wallet group” , a tall order but possible I think. I’m 85 and my neck suffers from recoil, even my .40-65 is too much now.
Before I get too far down this rabbit hole what would be the best brass and what’s it availability, or headstamped .32-40 in general?
Regarding the barrel. Is there a “standard” bore and groove size? Any suggestions on bore/groove size? Bullets, don’t need one with the highest BC but I would think the schuetzen guys would have a good choice on bullets. Twist, it seems 1:16 is a number that comes up but I guess that’s a choice to be made on bullet shape and weight. I normally paper patch but with this setup I think I will try GG loading and no gas checks. Breach seating is not ruled out.
I’ll have a bunch more questions I’m sure but thanks for the help.
Cheers Richard
.32-40 WCF
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Ray Newman
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Re: .32-40 WCF
I would also post your query on the American Single Shot Rifle Association:
https://forum.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl
Numerous 32-40 and schuetzen shooters post there.
https://forum.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl
Numerous 32-40 and schuetzen shooters post there.
Grand PooBah
WA ST F. E. S.
In real life may you be the bad ass that you claim to be on social media....
WA ST F. E. S.
In real life may you be the bad ass that you claim to be on social media....
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gunlaker
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Re: .32-40 WCF
If you can find 32-40 brass that's nice. It's easily made from Starline 38-55 ( 2.125" length ). Just run it through the FL sizer carefully, it might take several steps, and trim to length.
If you want the best chance for really nice groups you need to breech seat. I would get a 1:14 twist barrel and shoot 200gr bullets. If you can get a Ron Smith barrel you'll be in good shape. 1:16 is the twist rate used in most of the original rifles and limits you in bullet weight. Even in a 1:14 twist you will find that at 200 yards, with black powder, a bullet will be perfectly stable but might start tipping in cold winter air.
There is a nice guy on the ASSRA forum that goes by the name of bpjack. He makes highwall breech seaters.
Shooting consistent moa at 200 is going to be tough with black powder. Pretty easy with smokeless. I think you'll need to find a bullet that perfectly matches the throat, breech seat it, and be extremely particular about fouling control.
Chris.
If you want the best chance for really nice groups you need to breech seat. I would get a 1:14 twist barrel and shoot 200gr bullets. If you can get a Ron Smith barrel you'll be in good shape. 1:16 is the twist rate used in most of the original rifles and limits you in bullet weight. Even in a 1:14 twist you will find that at 200 yards, with black powder, a bullet will be perfectly stable but might start tipping in cold winter air.
There is a nice guy on the ASSRA forum that goes by the name of bpjack. He makes highwall breech seaters.
Shooting consistent moa at 200 is going to be tough with black powder. Pretty easy with smokeless. I think you'll need to find a bullet that perfectly matches the throat, breech seat it, and be extremely particular about fouling control.
Chris.
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martinibelgian
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Re: .32-40 WCF
Hmmm... a fast-twist 32-20 with a heavier bullet might also work.
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SchuetzenDave
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Re: .32-40 WCF
.32 RKS 11.5:1 twist Ron Smith barrel with 236 grain Paul Jones Spitzer plain base GG Alberta Schuetzen Lube using smokeless powder (AA #9, H108, WC820, AA 4100 or MP 300) using RP 7 1/2 primers.
The .32 Miller Short or the .32 RKS were designed for breech seating to obtain greater accuracy.
five 5 shot groups 100 yard target and a 10 shot 200 yard target with the above equipment.
The .32 Miller Short or the .32 RKS were designed for breech seating to obtain greater accuracy.
five 5 shot groups 100 yard target and a 10 shot 200 yard target with the above equipment.
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flatsguide
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Re: .32-40 WCF
Jeez that’s a sweet shooting rifle! Wonder why there is such an accuracy difference between smokeless and BP. I think it may be that smokeless grain size and therefore surface area is so uniform compared to BP. Just wondering
Cheers Richard
Cheers Richard
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Ray Newman
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Re: .32-40 WCF
"Wonder why there is such an accuracy difference between smokeless and BP."
-- FlatsGuide
My SWAG (Scientific Wild Arse Guess) is fouling control is easier to control with Smokeless than with Black Powder.
-- FlatsGuide
My SWAG (Scientific Wild Arse Guess) is fouling control is easier to control with Smokeless than with Black Powder.
Grand PooBah
WA ST F. E. S.
In real life may you be the bad ass that you claim to be on social media....
WA ST F. E. S.
In real life may you be the bad ass that you claim to be on social media....
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gunlaker
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Re: .32-40 WCF
Oh one more thing Flatsguide. Technically it's not the .32-40 WCF. Winchester sort of stole the cartridge from Marlin/Ballard and named it after themselves. If you post on the ASSRA site you'll have a handful of folks talking about that which might derail your thread 
I think there are two factors that affect the difference in accuracy with smokeless and blackpowder.
The easiest is fouling management. From what I've seen any difference in bore from shot to shot will mess up your groups. A little spec of lead in the bore that a 45 cal bullet wouldn't notice, will cause a flyer with the little 32 cal bullets.
The other is bump up. I don't think the normal smokeless powders used in the 32-40 really bump the bullet up much. So it's not likely to get distorted with a base out of square. With black powder that bullet is going to get a harder initial smack. If the bullet is not breech seated perfectly straight, or maybe it's not a perfect fit to the chamber, it's going to get bumped up in a way that causes trouble.
I am pretty confident that with enough effort the second problem can be solved too. There were some extremely excellent groups shot with duplex loads in the old days from a machine rest.
Chris.
I think there are two factors that affect the difference in accuracy with smokeless and blackpowder.
The easiest is fouling management. From what I've seen any difference in bore from shot to shot will mess up your groups. A little spec of lead in the bore that a 45 cal bullet wouldn't notice, will cause a flyer with the little 32 cal bullets.
The other is bump up. I don't think the normal smokeless powders used in the 32-40 really bump the bullet up much. So it's not likely to get distorted with a base out of square. With black powder that bullet is going to get a harder initial smack. If the bullet is not breech seated perfectly straight, or maybe it's not a perfect fit to the chamber, it's going to get bumped up in a way that causes trouble.
I am pretty confident that with enough effort the second problem can be solved too. There were some extremely excellent groups shot with duplex loads in the old days from a machine rest.
Chris.
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gunlaker
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Re: .32-40 WCF
Oh, and one more thing that might be of interest to you.
Randy Wright published a couple of books on schuetzen rifles. The second one "The Golden Age of the American Schuetzenfest" contains info that is pretty relevant to what you are trying to do. It also includes a lot of sample groups and loads that he came up with for his various rifles while trying to maximize accuracy in traditional schuetzen cartridges using straight black powder.
Chris.
Randy Wright published a couple of books on schuetzen rifles. The second one "The Golden Age of the American Schuetzenfest" contains info that is pretty relevant to what you are trying to do. It also includes a lot of sample groups and loads that he came up with for his various rifles while trying to maximize accuracy in traditional schuetzen cartridges using straight black powder.
Chris.
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SchuetzenDave
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Re: .32-40 WCF
I have been shooting with Ron Smith since the .32 rifles had a 16:1 twist.
As Ron developed more accurate rifles with 14:1 then 12:1 and 11.5:1 twists I also modified by rifles and was the second person to have a 11.5 twist.
We went from 180 to 190 bullets with the 16:1 twist to 200 to 210 bullets with the 14:1 twist to 220 to 230 for the 12:1 to 236 grain bullet for the 11.5:1 twist
The tighter twist was necessary to throw heavier and longer bullets.
The heavier bullets are less sensitive to wind drift due to kinetic energy which increases with bullet mass or bullet velocity.
Fouling from smokeless powders is more consistent which affects the accuracy.
Also accuracy is improved with increased velocities.
I shoot at 1,526 fps with smokeless whereas the BP loads cannot get the velocity up high enough to improve the kinetic energy.
Also the longer bullets have the center of gravity further forward which stablizes the yaw better - which again reduces sensistivity to wind drift.
And these light pistol powder loads used in these rifles have extremely light recoil resulting in better control of the firearm on the bench.
As Ron developed more accurate rifles with 14:1 then 12:1 and 11.5:1 twists I also modified by rifles and was the second person to have a 11.5 twist.
We went from 180 to 190 bullets with the 16:1 twist to 200 to 210 bullets with the 14:1 twist to 220 to 230 for the 12:1 to 236 grain bullet for the 11.5:1 twist
The tighter twist was necessary to throw heavier and longer bullets.
The heavier bullets are less sensitive to wind drift due to kinetic energy which increases with bullet mass or bullet velocity.
Fouling from smokeless powders is more consistent which affects the accuracy.
Also accuracy is improved with increased velocities.
I shoot at 1,526 fps with smokeless whereas the BP loads cannot get the velocity up high enough to improve the kinetic energy.
Also the longer bullets have the center of gravity further forward which stablizes the yaw better - which again reduces sensistivity to wind drift.
And these light pistol powder loads used in these rifles have extremely light recoil resulting in better control of the firearm on the bench.
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SchuetzenDave
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Re: .32-40 WCF
Formula for Kinetic Energy:
Ek = 1/2 mv2
If you increase either the mass of the bullet or the velocity of the bullet 3 times; it is squared = 9 multiply by 1/2 which means Ek has increased from 1 to 4 1/2.
So any increases in bullet weight or bullet velocity results in major increases in Kinetic Energy (energy of motion) reducing wind drift and extending the range a bullet can be shot to.
Ek = 1/2 mv2
If you increase either the mass of the bullet or the velocity of the bullet 3 times; it is squared = 9 multiply by 1/2 which means Ek has increased from 1 to 4 1/2.
So any increases in bullet weight or bullet velocity results in major increases in Kinetic Energy (energy of motion) reducing wind drift and extending the range a bullet can be shot to.
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flatsguide
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Re: .32-40 WCF
Gunlaker, thanks! I’ve got both of Randy’s Schuetzen books so I’ve got some re-reading to do. I hadn’t thought about bump up but sounds very reasonable. If I’m not mistaken the the .32-40 is a tapered case with no straight section so it might even be worse on this cartridge.Spot on about an interesting area to explore.
Dave,I think if you double the mass KE doubles and doubling the velocity quadruples the KE. I think I’ll give Ron a call and pick his brain.
Thanks Dave
Cheers Richard
Dave,I think if you double the mass KE doubles and doubling the velocity quadruples the KE. I think I’ll give Ron a call and pick his brain.
Thanks Dave
Cheers Richard
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gunlaker
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Re: .32-40 WCF
If you breech seat, the taper in the case won't matter because none of the bullet is in there. One of my 32-40's I had chambered with a reamer that used a lot less taper in the case. It still shoots noticeably better breech seating than with fixed ammo. But maybe I haven't bought enough 32 cal moulds yet
Chris
Chris
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flatsguide
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Re: .32-40 WCF
Right Chris, I seat my PP bullet around .100” into the case which is pretty close to breach seating and use a pretty hard alloy 1:16. Regarding leading with GG bullets, BS’ing or other wise, do you find a lot of small grooves or a few large grooves better? Also do bullets that that have higher quantities of tin, as in harder bullets, do you find them to lead more?
Thanks again!
Cheers Richard
Thanks again!
Cheers Richard
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gunlaker
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Re: .32-40 WCF
I'm not sure to be honest. These days I mostly shoot my 32-40s with IMR-4227. I don't really get any leading, just a bit of grey on the cleaning patches, no sparkles or chunks.flatsguide wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 8:19 am Right Chris, I seat my PP bullet around .100” into the case which is pretty close to breach seating and use a pretty hard alloy 1:16. Regarding leading with GG bullets, BS’ing or other wise, do you find a lot of small grooves or a few large grooves better? Also do bullets that that have higher quantities of tin, as in harder bullets, do you find them to lead more?
Thanks again!
Cheers Richard
The way I got my 32-40's to shoot best with black powder was to wipe them with whatever number of patches to get the bore really clean, and then to pass a patch with an extremely tiny amount of Ballistol on it to very very lightly oil the bore. I used the same lightly oiled patch for every shot as it never gets dirty and you never want to add more oil.
Chris.