My original.44/77 rolling block

[desert deuce]

Just an observation, in no way a criticism.

There seems to be two predominant schools of interest and involvement within the BPCR & BPTR community and in the background lurks the possible quest for the better mouse trap so to speak on one hand and a quest to study mouse traps that have been eclipsed on the other hand.

Hobbyists with history of the rifles past, Competitors with performance in competition with the rifles present. Here on the Shiloh Forum there seems to be a sort of amalgamation formed by the two which makes this forum of value to the wider audience that have a general interest in both.

Seems that makes the Shiloh Forum something special and to be appreciated.

[marlinman93]

Are there any ready made die sets for original Remington .44/77’s? They all pretty much use .452-.457 bullets and it causes issues with the seating/crimping die deforming the bullet unless seated super deep. I guess the cost effective thing to do would be to ream my current die out and forgo the roll crimp. This complicates things when you have too much flare on the case of course. I ended up calling Ken and ordered some correct diameter pins. My mint original Remington made rifle pins were .455, I believe ken said the average was .453 but he also said dimensions were all over the place while in production.

Not sure about "ready made", but I really like dealing with C&H4D company, and I would give them a call and ask. They always answer the phone, and the lady who directs calls is very easy to deal with, and can get someone in the shop to answer any questions she can't answer. I'm sure they could fix you up with dies.
I personally haven't had an issue using dies that can crimp. I just back the die off until it only removes the slight belling, and turn the bullet seater down to get the depth I want.

[NDuckhunter2]

I think I will try a couple other types of bullets with different different nose profiles first. What dies do you use? I’ve heard of guys using lee .43 Mauser dies too, I’m not sure what difference that might make over .43 Spanish. My .446 .44/77’s load up great but shoot horribly in the.453- .455 bore. I’ll check them out marlinman, thanks again!

[marlinman93]

I use .43 Mauser dies also, and I think mine are Lyman, but no reason Lee wont also work. Back when I got my first .44-77 the Lyman dies were easy to find and under $20 too. Since I don't full length size I'm only using them to neck size and seat bullets.

[NDuckhunter2]

I might try a set and see if that doesn’t help with the seating/crimping issue.

[powderburner]

Another interesting thing popped up in the august 23 sse
Remington was in control of long range matches at creedmoore
Sharps midrange.
The midrange guys found the 45s would shoot better than the 44s at distance some even rebarreling their rifles.
Remingtons fix for this was to muzzle load or breech seat the bullet and use the 44-77 case as a powder conveying means only.
That explains the heavy bullet barely in the case and 90 gn charges in the cases.
Also at this time in history schutzen was widely shot so it would be no great leap to load a 45 cal bullet in the bore and stuff a loaded case in the breech
Maybe its something for you to explore. It would certainly be a cheap workaround for Remington
Also at this time Remington got real possessive of their matches and even tried to force shooters to use their ammo. When that failed they quit sponsoring the match.
Could save you some bucks in dies for sure

[marlinman93]

Interesting about the .45's working better at mid-range vs. long range? I didn't even know any mid-range shooting was done as part of the Creedmoor matches? I've only read about 800 and 1000 yds. as distances at the Creedmoor match?
Wonder if the muzzleloaded bullets were paper patched or greasers? There's so little difference between the two bores with a .44-77 or 90 being around .452" groove, and a .45-70 being .457" groove. Wouldn't think the .005" difference would change much?
I never have understood the thinking behind half the shooters using Rolling Blocks, and half using 1874 Sharps? Unless that was the only way to field a fully qualified team by using shooters who already shot for the two companies?

[powderburner]

Remington ran the long range
Sharps ran the mid range
And Ballard ran 200 yard
Winchester furnished a running deer so their lever guns had an opportunity to compete. Apparently they hadn’t come up with the single shot from the article.
This was in the early days at creedmoore

[powderburner]

Ram should be sponsored in the above post.

[marlinman93]

Remington ran the long range
Sharps ran the mid range
And Ballard ran 200 yard
Winchester furnished a running deer so their lever guns had an opportunity to compete. Apparently they hadn’t come up with the single shot from the article.
This was in the early days at creedmoore

Early days? If this was the "early days" then those would not be the first Creedmoor matches, they'd simply be matches held at the new Creedmoor range prior to the October 1874 Match with the Irish. Prior to that match there was no actual Creedmoor match, and even the range was not called Creedmoor, it was simply the range built on the old farm land of Creed's Moor as it was called prior to the first match with the Irish.
Different matches with shooting done at distances not used in the first Creedmoor matches.

[powderburner]

Reread the post. I did not call it the creedmoore matches. I called it the long range matches AT creedmoore. As there was no date specified in the article I cannot tell you when, only that it appears it was about 10 years before the win single shot. And approx in the 1870s. If the companys were sponsoring the “long range matches”to set up the team for the first world match that happened along about that time as well. I think they call it practice.
This may be where the article came from.
They also mentioned the newspapers of the times had a lot to say . If you dont like what I conveyed fromthe article, perhaps you would Care to research the papers of that time and see if youcan find any other whisker splitters I wrote about.

[marlinman93]

Sorry if what I asked or posted offended you. But the property for the range at Creed's Moor wasn't even purchased until 1872, and the range didn't open until the middle of 1873. Matches began at that time in an effort to answer the challenge by the British who had just won the Echo Shield world championship long range match. The US amateur team accepted the challenge and won by a small margin due to a British officer who accidentally fired on the wrong target, giving the championship to the Americans. The next year the Irish came over to challenge the US team, and was soundly beaten by the Americans.
Prior to the range opening at Creedmoor there were no official matches in the US for long range 800-1000 yds. as it seems nobody was interested in shooting past 500 yds. here. But when the British challenged the US it was assumed their long history would make for a huge advantage over any US shooters. But the NRA, and the National Guard put together matches, and shooters to quickly determine a team that they felt could be competitive with the British and they were.
I assumed your reference to "Another interesting thing popped up in the august 23 ss Remington was in control of long range matches at creedmoore Sharps midrange." was directed at long range matches there, since you mentioned both Creedmoor and long range matches in your reply? So since there were no long range matches at Creedmoor prior to it's opening in June 1873, it made sense to me. Any other matches at shorter distances at the Creedmoor Range shouldn't be considered as anything more than just local matches at any range.
I don't know everything about Creedmoor, or various matches held there from opening to when NY state closed the range. But it has always been something I've read as much about as possible. So I guess I need to get the SSE August 23 issue to see exactly what was written, and add it to what I currently have.

[powderburner]

I tried to pm you but you are not set up so. I concede your knowledge of the matches.
I was only offering an opinion of the evolution of the 44-77 long range ctg and a way to make it shoot.
Sorry the thread went sideways

[marlinman93]

I tried to pm you but you are not set up so. I concede your knowledge of the matches.
I was only offering an opinion of the evolution of the 44-77 long range ctg and a way to make it shoot.
Sorry the thread went sideways

Same here. Again my apologies if I offended you. Not sure what's with the PM thing? I'll have to check and see if I'm smart enough to fix it?

edit: Just checked and where it asks if users can send private messages I have it marked "yes", so not sure why it wont work?

[powderburner]

Sent another and it went. So I probably was in a dead spot.