Reading tea leaves or better yet paper patches

[flatsguide]

Wonder what you fellows can tell me what’s going on by reading these patches. What is the brown marking.
Here are the particulars:
The rifle is a Browning BPCR in .45-70
Star line cases trimmed to 2.10
81.5 gns Swiss 1.5
CCI br2
Straight sided slick bullet wrapped two wraps of Office Depot .0018”
Wrapped bullet dia. Is .450

PP READ.jpeg

Wad is LDPE .065” thick by .464” diameter
Bullet seating depth is .120”
Alloy 16:1
Cleaning between shots as follows; bore pig with two wet felts pushed through bore with a wet patch followed by another wet patch then two dry patches one at a time.
Two hundred yard groups are
V 3.14”
H 3.38

[patchbox]

I’ve never seen patches that intact before. At least with mine. All I get is confetti out the muzzle. I find little strips and pieces that were cut by the rifling and maybe a chunk or two of the base fold-over. I use the Seth Cole 55W paper. There’s usually not much left but what I described above.

Brown streaks possibly gas blowing by? My wad stack is usually thicker. 1/16” veg fiber wad for powder compression, 1/8” thick felt wad, and 1/32” veg fiber wad to top it off. Also have tried 1/8” lube cookie wad substituted for the felt.

[MikeT]

Do you wipe the bore between shots?
The bullet may be too hard to bump up enough to make confetti out of the patch.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

[77 sharps]

What is the alloy and diameter of the bullet before patching? The diameter to be able the recommend a paper. Any reasonable alloy should be able the bump up .009” . Your paper should be cut into strips not unwrapping.

[kwilliams]

My first guess is maybe the alloy is too hard. Also can you recover any fired bullets, the base and rifling imprint will tell you alot about whats going on.

[flatsguide]

Mike, just below the picture is my cleaning procedure.
77Sharps, 16:1 and I think the naked dia. Is .443” . On other bullets I’ve recovered I had rifling marks , not very deep, and they fade into subtle mark were the top of the paper is.
patch, I think I’ll shoot a couple of rounds into the swimming pool and see if there is any flame cutting.
Thanks guys

[steveu834]

Do you know exactly what the bore and groove diameter is? Before I started on bullet size for my 40-65 I was advised to do a chamber cast and run some pin gauges down the barrel to get the dimensions first. I’m a novice at this but I think your diameter should be a little bigger to get the patch to shred.

[Tomklinger]

The patched bullet should pass through the bore with “light” pressure. Usually .001 over bore size….
Tom Klinger

[Tomklinger]

Also wood and velum patching paper don’t shred near as well as cotton…..
Tom Klinger

[craneman]

There are several things to consider here. With the small diameter of your slick and the thicker paper and harder bullet I don't think it's bumping up enough to cut your paper. A softer alloy would likely have better results shredding, BUT if you have a slender long ogive bullet then you may experience uneven setback or slumping which will lead to inaccuracy. We have this same rifle for our match shooting, four of them to be exact because I want to shoot after driving hours to a match, not spend time trying to fix a broken rifle. I have found if you go to a .446 slick and wrap with Alvin 55-W, keep your 16-1 you will find the consistent accuracy you seek, and shredded patches. Also if you were to order a new mould have the length at 1.43 or so, you will be happier. Avoid the long pointy money type bullets. BACO has some that have a nose that is close to the original money bullet design, or Metford profile if you will. The sharper nosed bullets will give great results until you start fighting headwinds. The grease groove version doesn't seem to suffer the same issues with headwinds.
This isn't conjecture, i have bought the moulds with the different nose profiles and shot them in many matches.
I'd be happy to send you some bullets and patches for you to try, especially to compare to your current bullets if you shoot them into the pool!

Todd

[craneman]

https://www.buffaloarms.com/448-520-gra ... 48520.html

This is the bullet we are currently using. I had Jim make it at .446 specifying 16-1 alloy 1.43 in length.

Todd

[martinibelgian]

Mike, just below the picture is my cleaning procedure.
77Sharps, 16:1 and I think the naked dia. Is .443” . On other bullets I’ve recovered I had rifling marks , not very deep, and they fade into subtle mark were the top of the paper is.
patch, I think I’ll shoot a couple of rounds into the swimming pool and see if there is any flame cutting.
Thanks guys

Actually, it should work - you just need to change 1 of 3 things, at your choice so that there is enough bump up at the front edge of the PP:
1. go to softer bullet alloy OR
2. Make the patch a bit shorter OR
3. Use a faster-burning powder

FWIW, I use a bullet/paper specs just like you, and it will shoot - even if I do prefer groove-dia. PP bullets. Think about it, whether the bullet is .443 or .446, it has to bump up the same - the remaining space is taken up by the thicker paper, and paper thickness is still less than groove depth. I would try changing patch length 1st, that bullet you recuperated will give you a good indication to where the front edge would have to be. it's the easiest element to test of the 3..

[Kenny Wasserburger]

1. Paper too thick.
2. Bullet Diameter too small.
3. Alloy is fine I use even harder 14.5-1. And have won National Championships with it. In a PP bullet. Shot pretty well at 1 mile this past weekend.

Run a .445 or .446 bullet as mentioned use thinner paper if you’re getting wraps such as pictured you’re not getting proper bump up. You paper thickness is more than the depth of the rifling you will never get proper confetti at the muzzle. Which is an absolute must. You have the solution too your problem, right here. What you do now will require a different bullet mould and thinner paper to be successful.

The black isn’t flame cutting more likely fouling in the barrel I have found a clean bore shoots best for accuracy.

Good luck.

Kenny Wasserburger

[bpcr shooter]

https://www.buffaloarms.com/448-520-gra ... 48520.html

This is the bullet we are currently using. I had Jim make it at .446 specifying 16-1 alloy 1.43 in length.

Todd

Between Todd and his son, I think its 3, maybe 4 first place trophies at 1000yd with that bullet.....and many other wins at other matches.

matt

[Kurt]

Looking at the patch remnants that brown streak is not heat related,
What I see on the top remand the patch is still fairly clean with the brown streak. The under wrap is still intact, uncut. If it was blow by the under wrap would look like what you see in my photo with the closest strip to the group that shows some gas cutting with that under wrap. That .464 diameter wad is tight enough in the bore to hold the gas back.
I mostly use Paper Mill and Southworth paper. The Paper Mill paper I have is mostly .002-.0022" thick. I don't like using paper that is not as thick with two wraps than the groove depth. I have a couple rifles that the groove is .003" deep and I will use the thinner paper for those.
I think that brown strip might have been the first couple shot from a clean barrel that might had some flash rust from your cleaning solution. Windex with vinager can cause this if it's not completely dried out before oiling the bore. Even plain water can cause this if not completely dry before oiling.
The under wrap is still good on your patches, uncut. The full wraps can be an issue with the paper if it's a velum copy paper. I have some and I will get what you have with the bottom wrap still intact.
If you're finding those remnants close to the muzzle they would have released just fine with out accuracy loss.

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