Problem With Original Sharps Chamber, New W-W Brass

taw1126 · Post by **taw1126** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:33 am

I've made myself sick with my own stupidity...
Just got finished loading some prepped cases and tried to chamber the first "complete" cartridge before proceeding with the rest, and wouldn't you know it, the thing won't chamber. So far not a big deal but...tried to chamber some charged cases without bullets and the breech won't close on them either.

The rifle's a .45-70 and trim length is 2.09-inches. Also tried chambering once-fired .33 WCF brass (to make sure the problem wasn't/isn't trim length) and it won't go either so this looks like the case rim is too thick. Never thought this would be an issue since A-Zoom snap caps chamber just fine.

Suggestions on how to proceed? The cases are primed, charged with between 65 and 68 grains of Goex Cartridge, and compressed with wads seated so I don't think grinding down the primer end is a good idea. At this point I don't even know how to remove the wads & powder so I can try to fix everything (I'd shoot 'em as blanks if they'd chamber) so any suggestions would be nice.

BuckeyeShooter · Post by **BuckeyeShooter** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:36 pm

taw1126, take an awl and push it through the wad and pry sideways and it should come out fairly easy. You'll have to pick some of that compressed powder loose at the top and the rest should come out fairly easy. As far as the primers go I have deprimed live primers many times with my sizing die. I'm not saying that I recommend this, but it can be done gently. Just make sure you wear your safety glasses as you always should when loading and don't have any open powder on the bench which you shouldn't do when priming anyways.

powderburner · Post by **powderburner** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:40 pm

taw send em to me and i'll shoot em up for you and send the emptys back.

the only way to get the powder out is to dig it take a small pick and just scrape it out if it is compressed a lot it will be like a plug in there I just push a small sharp object down the side of the case to loosten it up than tap it on the mouth and out it comes .if you have ignition concerns you can soak them in water or submerge them and dig it out ,probably safer wet you might try and run a case through the sizing die without a bullet in it and no decapping rod in the die and see if it will chamber .make sure the die is touching the shell holder as well .You can also take an unprimed case and tap it into the die until it is flush with the mouth than tap it out with a dowel and see if that will chamber .also ck too see if the extractor is setting flush with the chamber and that there is no junk in the rim recess in the chamber or under the extractor just a few thoughts .................Dean

Bob Bloyer · Post by **Bob Bloyer** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:02 pm

Taw,
I had problems with new WW brass in my Highwall. Even with the new brass I found out by trial and error that the cases would only fit one way in the chamber. I indexed them one at a time until I found which way they fit and marked them with a magic marker and later cut a notch with a file. I had 500 of the new cases and had fire formed 250 of them before I realized what was going on. I sold the other 250 ww cases and now use the indexed cases for chickens. The highwall has good camming power and I was able to fire form the first 250 cases but had to check this out as I couldn't continue with the camming method while shooting. The WW cases mostly measured .505 " just above the rim. Too tight for my match chambered highwall. I bought starline cases and they measured .500 " just above the rim and fit just fine.
Another thought, you didn't mention how much compression or what type of wad you used. If your using poly and compressing near .280 " or more you could be mashing the poly enough to bulge the case wall where the wad sets. If this was the case I reckon you could try full length resizing the cases and see if they will go back but if this doesn't work then it's to the pick to remove the wad. If you have major compression on those guys , good luck and be safe. Bob

Ken Hartlein · Post by **Ken Hartlein** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:18 pm

That's what I'd do also, take the decapping pin out of the FL resizing die and run the loads through the resizing die, make sure the case goes all the way up to the base of the die. If they still won't work either the die is wrong or the chamber is maybe not right. You can pick the wads and powder out with a home made wooden pick, it's not a problem,

I've done it several times.

Smokin · Post by **Smokin** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:32 pm

taw 1126

Have you determined what part of the case is causing the problem of preventing full chambering? You seem to indicate that the rim counterbore is less than the thickness of the rim + headspacing tolerances. Others who have responded are looking at other problems. I sounds as if the rifle may be either new or new to you. Have you fired it before with any other cases? Have you tried chambering any other cases? As noted by others, the head diameter varies with manufacturer and if your rifle has a tight chamber R-P cases may be your best bet as they are about .005" smaller than W-W cases. However, if the rim on a case from a commercial manufacturer won't fit into the chamber rim counterbore, the chamber will need to be recut. Another interpretation of the title of the message is that this is an "original" Sharps and has collector value, you are now stuck with altering an antique of substantial value or modifying all the cases you use in the rifle.

Good luck, and I hope you are good with a lathe if the latter is true

taw1126 · Post by **taw1126** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:34 pm

Thanks for the responses and tips on digging out the powder charge. I think I'll set aside the charged cases for now until I figure out exactly what the problem is.

It looks like either the rim is too thick or the rim diameter is too large. I experimented with once-fired R-P brass, once-fired W-W brass, the unfired W-W brass that I had planned to use, and a Bertram .33 WCF case. I couldn't close the breech with any of these without undue force that makes me uncomfortable since the rifle is original. Right now the only thing that chambers well is A-Zoom snap-caps.

I filed down the headstamp end of an unprimed/unfired W-W case to the point that the headstamp is gone and it's getting close to chambering easily. Tomorrow I'm going to measure the rim diameters of the snap caps and compare to the W-W; maybe that is the problem. I'm not willing to alter the chamber so if it shoots well I might be buying some expensive custom brass...good thing I'm into this for the challenge but it's also my introduction to BP reloading. Looks like nothing is going to come easily with this venture.

Kelley O. Roos · Post by **Kelley O. Roos** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:14 pm

taw1126,

If you have a recess of less then 62 thousands W.W. case's won't fit. You need to get a depth gauge and measure the depth of the recess were the case rim fit's in the barrel stub. If that head space is the problem it's an easy fix. Just find a friend that has a lathe and turn your case rim's down to what will fit into your chamber. The thing to remember is you may have to recut the primer pockets to proper depth. If you have to cut the case rim's down that will save you money because you won't have to buy special brass. If you don't have someone with a lathe let me know and I can cut the case rim's down, if that's what needs to be done.

Kelley O.

deerhuntsheatmeup · Post by **deerhuntsheatmeup** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 6:14 am

Also, If you go KO's route. Maybe, just maybe you could use large pistol primers without having to change the primer pocket size.

That would be a good thing. Alot of people are having good luck using pistol primers........

Later, David Barfield

taw1126 · Post by **taw1126** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:25 am

Again, thanks to everyone for the help. I never would have even attempted BP loading if this board wasn't around and I'm still amazed at the wealth of information that's so easily available.

Kelley- what gauge do you recommend using to measure depth? My calipers are inside/outside/depth capable but I can't imagine being skilled enough to get decent measurements from them in this application. Maybe I'm selling them short.

As for the primer pockets, I was going to try using a primer pocket uniformer in an attempt to keep the primer depth right. Do you guys think that's enough?

The good news is that the rim diameter doesn't appear to be a problem. I think I can reduce the thickness by carefully using a bench-mounted belt sander. I don't doubt that the old folded cartridges had thinner rims, but I'm surprised that I've never heard of this problem before. Maybe I got a rifle that was cut to mimimum tolerances, but I expected to just "load it up and shoot it" after I got all the BP stuff. Oh well- nothing worth doing comes easily.

Kelley O. Roos · Post by **Kelley O. Roos** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:54 am

taw 1126,

You can use the depth part on the dial calipers, just takes extra care is all.

Have you full length sized an unfired case yet to see if it would fit? You really need to do one step at a time just to see what is causing the problem. You may even have bumped up the bullets with out even reliezing it or bulged the case's from the compression process.

Kelley O.

taw1126 · Post by **taw1126** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:56 am

Kelley:
I ran full-length sized cases (of various manufacture, as noted above) into the chamber and the breech block hangs up on all of them. The .33 WCF case was used to make sure that the problem wasn't due to case trim length, cartridge overall length, or powder compression.

The A-Zoom rim thickness appears to be 0.061" 0.063"; the W-W brass looks to be right around where you said it would be (I get 0.066" to 0.069"). The case I've been working over is at 0.063" to 0.065" and getting close to chambering. Amazing that two-thousandth's of an inch can make or break case chambering.

Kelley O. Roos · Post by **Kelley O. Roos** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:35 pm

taw 1126

Normal head space is between .067 to .069

A lathe is the best way to thin case rim's. You'll want the breach block to just touch the case rim. So if your head space is .061 to .062 cut the rim's to .061

Use a feeler gauge to find head space. Once you get a case to chamber. Close the breach block, then slide different thickness gauge's between block and case rim. A good fit is when a guage just slides with drag between block and case rim. That measurement will tell you how much or how thick the case rim will be.

If you choose to use a sander make a fixture so you can hold the case's all in the same manor and get the same sanded thickness of the rim's.

Now make sure the pimer pockets are deep enough for what ever primer's you'll be using, say large pistol primers or rifle primers.

Kirk can correct me if I am wrong about any of the above or can add anything.

Kelley O.

MLV · Post by **MLV** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:23 pm

The proper way to thin case rims is to cut them on the front, not on the rear or the headstamp side. That way primer pockets are not affected. Of course this must be done via a lathe.

By the way this sounds like a strange situation. Over the years I've fired a couple dozen of original Sharps .45-70 rifles and own two right now. None of them have ever had a problem in chambering modern brass. Good luck.

horsefly · Post by **horsefly** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:19 pm

Good Morning 1126;

If you have a good supply of cases and their rim thickness is pretty standard, I think I would deepen the rim recess to standard. Then you can resupply cases without having to invest a lot of work in them again. It's always best to have a standard chamber.

If you go ahead and alter the rims, you can get by with taking two or three, maybe four thousandths off of the head and then uniforming the primer pockets. More than that and I think you'd better listen to MLV.

You can alter the case heads with a sander as suggested, but be very very sure that the fixture holds the case head flat against the sander and allows you to rotate the case whwile sanding to make up for any lack of perpindicularity in the fixture.

Y'all be good.

horsefly