No Competition!

[RMulhern]

From time to time....in reading this forum...it appears that there are some that post here that are inclined to "look down their noses".....at those of us that DO NOT shoot competition in BPCR! Like....if you don't shoot "silly-wet"....how can you possibly KNOW ANYTHING! Or unless...you haven't shot a Creedmoor Match in LR....how can you possibly know squat?? There are probably many....of us.....whom read these forums that have...and shoot....BPCR rifles that do not shoot competition. I, for one, would love to be able to shoot LR matches on a regular basis but WORK....prevents me from doing so! Do I have to work? NO! It just so happens that I love what I do....and the business that I attend to.....very FEW people can do my job...or care to do it for that matter! But...I shoot on a regular basis here on my home range....and have learned MUCH....from the folks that post here: notably.....the Rdnck and Kenny Wasserberger. Kenny has/was especially helpful...with assisting me in obtaining INCREDIBLE ACCURACY.....with this Shiloh .45/110 I have! I'd venture to say...that there are probably many "lurkers"...who come here that don't shoot competition but whom have a long history possibly of having shot competition in the years gone by...that also enjoy these BPCR rifles and shooting BP! I won't discount the fact....that THEY could probably teach all of us a thing or two!

[don marable]

Sharpsman:

Here, here and carry on. Like you, I feel that those of us that do not shoot competively are thought of as lessor people. I too work, and my 65 year old, cararack ridden eyes are not what they once were, but I manage to get 10 shots into about 2 inches at 100 yards. I have eye surgery scheduled for this coming August third. If all goes well, I should be able to tighten the group a tad.

I make my living assisting chemical plants in disposing of hazardous waste, and I enjoy my work.

Finally, Sharpsman we have a lot in common. I am a pal of Renck and get a lot of useful information from him, and I shoot a 45-110.

Have a nice day,

Don

[Ken Hartlein]

Well, I don't read all of the threads and posts but I've never actually seen anyone on here talk "down" to folks who just like to shoot. I really enjoy shooting "silly-wett", but I'm not very good at it and also shoot just for the fun of it at the range and at home. I also enjoy hunting and just plain 'ol owning a Sharps. I'd say if you don't shoot silhouette and someone else puts you down because you don't then shame on them. (I'm putting that nicely) ha ha.

[Josh A.]

For my nickles worth, I don't necessarily think anyone has been treated as second class. The real crux of the issue is that competition is a no BS deal. You and your rifle perform or not. No bull about so and so sized group with a called flier, no screamer 500 meter group reports without the 20 bad groups in between. Knock 'em down and add them up, that's it. When you have a master class or stout AAA shooter give you rifle and load details you can count on their information being crucible tested. Sort of having the fluff and baloney burned away.

I don't mean to say that the non-comp. guys don't have anything to add, there is some great experience out there...its just when it comes to the wall, I tend to listen to the guys that compete and win. They are the benchmark by which the others are judged.

J

[Sharpsnut]

I'm an NRA master class shooter.Since they changed the scores required to make Master to 28/40 it is a tough hill to climb,particularly for those of us who shoot where the wind is measured with a logging chain most days! :lol:

I try very hard NEVER to talk down to anyone on this forum when answering a question.As a matter of fact ,I generally only mention the fact that I shoot silhouette when responding to folks so they they know I do have a bit of experience.

As to Silhouette shooters in general,about the only thing I have noticed(not on this forum,but some others) is that SOME of the "experts" I see posting all manner of BPCR advice are actually pretty poor "A" or a best "AA" class shots who will remain there forever.Not kids,women,or beginners,but grown men.I know some of them and have seen them shoot.I would just as soon take loading advice from a coonhound as I would from those guys.

Just because you do not shoot NRA sihlouette or creedmoor does not mean you can't load BPCR well and vice-a-versa...Also,advice ANYONE gives you for loading or shooting advice may not work well with YOUR particular rifle...

[Smokin]

Hey Sharpsman,

I find that if I squint just right I am able to look down my nose. I can do it with my left eye; I can do it with my right eye. If I concentrate real hard and cross my eyes, I can do it all at once. Now this takes some serious squeezin' of precious resources and will cause me to stagger like a practiced drunk for about 5 minutes after I've peered down my proboscis, putting at risk the return of my precious binocularity. And now you're telling me I can't do it? For goodness sake man, I've just perfected the process!


Knight Exemplar
Frozen Tundra Chapter
FES

[deerhuntsheatmeup]

Gents,
I have felt that men who enjoy shooting as a caual pasttime have just as much knowledge as those of us who compete. I shoot way more at casual practice sessions than I do at matches and I enjoy both.

It is amazing how I can go to a regulation match and shoot around a 20 and got to Taz's practice range and eat the targets up. I learn alot from practicing at Taz's range, how to use your ears and eyes to judge a wind change. Also I keep a close eye on fouling so that I get no surprises at a match.

I will doubt I will ever be a master class shooter but I am close to AAA. On a good day with the right spotter, I do OK. I say these things because some of us that don't score particularly well may be able to add something new to a topic or possibly pass on some info that was given to us by someone who knew what they were talking about.

I do not give out info as fact until I have tried it. The things rdnck told me in the beginning were fact. It really shortened my learning curve. Others have helped me with other things and I am testing some of their ideas this summer, if they work or don't I will post here.

There is no substitute for bought experience. Go out and shoot a new load, try a new bullet, sub a different primer, change your hold, or shoot a different distance. All these things must be learned by doing them and not just reading what somebody said.

These lessons are the most valuable to a shooter. Period. Competition or not.

FWIW, David Barfield

[Trigger Dr]

There is a saying.... "THOSE THAT CAN....DO, THOSE THAT CAN'T... TEACH.
While this may be true to a certain extent, in certain fields of endeavor, I believe that when shooting BPCR, or any other form, the information given is particular to the person providing the information. Yes, the laws of physics are there, but the laws of personal ability apply to one person alone. That being the one speaking.
I have stated before, I AM A HUNTER. Although I occasionally go to a match, (I will be there in about 45 minutes) I usually do not shoot. Why?
Because I am a hunter. I practice the way I hunt, in the wild with the conditions that I find when hunting. I really enjoy watching when someone makes that hit and realizes that they just acomplished a dificult task.
Do I feel that they are beter shots than I? Some ... YES, Some ...NO.
Do I feel they know more about the sport than I Some YES Some NO. Does it really matter? NOT IN THE LEAST. Do I know it all ? I wish I were that fortunate. Do I learn from these Target shooters? BY ALL MEANS YES. The information I get from them may not be pertinent to Hunting, but it is an increase to my knowledge base, and at some point in time, it will become VERY USEFUL.
To All........ load em up, shoot em out, share your wealth of knowledge, gain from the experience of others, have a good outing and reflect on it when you get to the point of inability to participate. God, I hope that never happens, but most assuridly it will intime.
Even those who hgave been percieved to " look down their noses" must look up to some one else.
Trigger Dr Jim Milner

[Gunny]

Sharpsman & Folks,

Interesting observation-------Interesting!!

I have not been witness to any slights from the competition shooters to the layed back shooters that are just as happy busting rocks as winning any of the "Trinkets" we shoot for in a match. I personally am a Silhouette Shooter and that is the only disapline I care to shoot in. It took some very carefull and dedicated loading and shooting to shoot my way into Master Class, that should and does add credance to my knowledge. However I also fel that anyone willing to take the time and with the dedication can accomplish that same goal. The folks that "Choose" for what ever reason not to shoot in competition are also a vast reservoir of knowledge, to pass this knowledge by is foolish indeed. We all have a lot to learn no matter the venue we pick to shoot in.

I also remember somewhere here in one of these post some time back that Kirk said that 80% of all of the Shiloh's he builds never ever see any Black Powder. That this 80 % of shooters shoot smokeless and never even consider competition. So at least as far as the Shilohs are concerned most are probably bought and used for Hunting and casual shooting. Shame too as Shiloh is one of the best competition rifles out there. Nothing wrong with either of those endeavors but smokeless???

Shooting in competition is certainly not for everyone. But it does show what you and the rifle are capable of on race day.

Gunny

[Coydog B.]

Interesting thread that managed to drag me out of the shadows (yes Bruce A. I’m still around, just in stealth lurk mode). Here’s my take on competitions, especially silhouette.

For a while when I first started shooting BPCRs, I’d only shoot the buff style gong matches because they were informal and generally fun. They're a great bunch of guys, and most are there for the fun of it. I actually managed to win some smaller buff matches and a couple of 800, 900, and 1000-yard matches too. I even went to the Quigley 3 years straight and held my own there.

I’d tried a couple silhouette matches too, but didn’t fare too well, as a matter of fact I sucked. For some reason (read sloppy technique) Silhouettes kicked my butt. It was frustrating, and it was embarrassing. I could get away with it (sloppy technique) in buff and gong matches, but Silhouette seemed way more demanding, the turkeys are tiny, and the chickens dance and jump to and fro. Last year my ability to travel to buff matches was curtailed due to work, luckily there are 3 silhouette matches near by that don't require travel. So I decided to get serious about Silhouettes and even had a new rifle built for it.

My 1st couple matches were still disappointing, but I was having fun, and learning things I’d thought I already knew. My loads seemed to work on paper, but they didn’t translate into match scores. So I got out my Shaver insert, and started practicing weekly both off sticks and off-hand, also dryfiring off-hand across my living room. Funny thing, my results on my mini silhouettes and .22 mirrored my match results, they still do, but now they’re better. I also listened hard to Master shooters (Kelley “O”, and the guys (and Gal) out at Miller, KS). I went from AA to AAA in 6 matches with some solid AAA scores. I seriously learned more in two matches while having Master shooters spot for me then I did in years previously. These folks will share years of hard-learned knowledge at the drop of a hat, IF you’ll listen. As one poster pointed out, there's no BS at the match, animals go down, or they stay up. So I was forced to practice to get better. I was on an upward glide path till the ugly Mexia Texas Cyber Shoot II incident, which was a major setback, and I now avoid the state of Texas whenever possible. I’m just now starting to recover.

This year, I’m back in solid AAA with my last match score being a 31 (shot with straight wheel-weights BTW) for my first Silhouette match win. As Kelley “O” says, “If it can be done once, it can be done again, and again." I know that I still have a lot to learn, but I wouldn’t have [b]had[/b] to learn it, if it weren’t for shooting in competitions. I’m not yet where I want to be, but I guess I don’t suck anymore either, or at least not suck as bad.

Competitions provide a measure of your abilities, and also allow you to set goals to achieve. They provide structure too, I know that the guys next to me are also using straght black, in an approved rifle. The playing field is about as level as possible.

So, while I don’t “look down my nose” at guys that don’t compete, I tend to listen closely and hang on every word of those that do compete successfully, because I've been on that same level playing field.

Chuck

[Ken Hartlein]

Well said, Coydog, by the way I'm still looking for that cup of coffee, and thanks again for the targets.

[Smokin]

Coydog,

Glad it is I am to learn that you are still around!! Even if it is in primary lurk mode. I, too, have had some serious setbacks with my endeavors at attempting shooting. I say attempt in all sincerity. Our last LR match on the Frozen Tundra saw me come in dead last with no close competition for that unenviable position. And I was the match director! I could have fudged the scores, but let me tell you there isn't chocolate enough up here on the tundra to make the fudge required to improve my score. Man, was I shooting rotten. Or it could have been the ammo or it could have been the rifle. You know it's the good craftsman who knows when to blame the tools. And they may have had some share in share in what I attempted to put down range, but it was I who pulled the trigger. In my own defense, I have to say that I was shooting at the targets. But as it turned out, I was only shooting AT the targets.

One of these days I also may stop load development at the match. Hey one thing has always puzzled me: where do you find wheelweights that look like bullets? All the ones I come upon look like a robot's kidneys and with that clip gizmo on the back just won't go down the bore. Do you need more than a 3 lb hammer to get them to fit?

Cheers, Bruce

[Omak Cowboy]

I've shot a number of diciplines and seen a few more. Most of the groups I"ve seen or shot with aren't much fun. They take themselves and the sport waaaay too serious. Damned near seen a fight or two over holes in paper targets. In my world fights are pretty serious stuff. It's not going to be a couple of smacks and no harm done. Someone is going to the hospital or much worse, and I just dont' have time for that kind of stupidity.

The two groups that I have enjoyed are small bore silly -wets and shotgun folks. Both seem to go out of thier way to help us handicaped -meaning not so much ablity - to shoot better...and we laugh a lot!

I shoot for fun. Truth is I don't give a hang about scores. Yep, I try to do my best but either way it's just paper. If I ain't laughing it's not the right day or I"m in the wrong group.

[RMulhern]

Omak Cowboy

<< If I ain't laughing it's not the right day >>

I think it was W.C. Fields that always stated...."Start the day out with a smile....AND GET IT OVER WITH"!

[Kelley O. Roos]

The responces to this topic are pretty amazing. When I first read what sharpsman commented on, I wondered what he was trying to acomplish, was his comments a prelude for a situation that could occur, was he being negitive or was it postive, something to think about. Those comments of mine are subjective thinking on my part.

Lets take a look at competition. If there was no Silhouette, long range, mid range, gong shoot's and buffalo matches what would that lead to? We wouldn't have good rifle manufacture's ,such as Shiloh here, no really good bullet moulds, a good selection of personal favorite Black Powder, sight makers, supply house's such as Buffalo Arms, all these BPCR chat rooms are now available to talk Black powder and so on. we have a good many choices because of competition and the competitive shooter.

We wouldn't have a wide selection of rifles and calibers if it wasn't for competition and the demand it caused. Maybe you Sharpsman wouldn't have that 45-110 to shoot at your private range if it wasn't for competitions and the competitive shooter. It's a lucky man who has his own range to shoot on and I for one would love to have my own range. I don't, so it won't be the end of my world.

I don't feel anyone that has posted on the Shiloh board has made a response that should have made anyone feel as if he was being talked down to or even looked down their nose upon.

These are what I would consider crass, a competitive shooter who put's any awards that he has won on a table for the world to see or makes rude comments about some other's products that are being used, instead of his own, there is just no class in doing those types of things. Awards are hung on your trophy wall at home for your own pleasure or stuck in a drawer, is how I feel.

Everyone has something they can be taught or teach, it's how the teaching/learning is applied thats important.

Do I have to work for a living? YES. I work hard and competitive shooting gives me the needed break from working, shooting is my hobby. Working allows me to pay for that hobby and my hobby keeps me refreshed so I don't burn out from working. It's never dull.

Like I said, it's Subjective, competiting or not to competite. I like the benifit's of competiting better.

Kelley O.