Joe Davis was at the range yesterday, Joe has the best toys! He drug along a couple of black powder catridge guns he had picked up in Africa, the first was J.Rigby of St.James, London and Dublin, 450 Express.....the prettiest thing I ever seen that didn't wear perfume and dance backwards! Talk about graceful! rifle fairly dances between your hands, slim and graceful, big old lever under the trigger pivots to open the action, and closes up like a safe, the engraving is profuse but so intricate and small to complement the rifle locks and actions size that you have to look close to see how beautiful it is, Joe let me send some rounds down range, the two blade express sites were marked 150-250, with a six O'Clock hold on the black, at two hundred the rifle put 4 holes in the rings at five O'Clock touching the black, two from each barrel, off sticks....that aint bad!
The other Rifle was almost a twin to the Rigby ....but was unmarked, no name, no serial#.....nothing but Brit. proofs, Joe said it was probably an Army Navy gun.......I did not wish to appear more ignorant than I usually do, so....I nodded and agreed with him, this rifle was nearly equal in workmanship and fit, and had a recoil pad that had flattend out from many years of standing in a rack somewhere, this gun was chambered 450 something or the other and was a bottle neck catridge, I didn't shoot it, but the sites on it were regulated for closer distance, Joe is wanting to find a source of .458 Dia. hardcast-gas checked bullets for these bruisers ...so if any of you good folks know a good reliable source for same, please post it here and I will get the info to Joe....he may let me shoot them some,
Oh, and if that ain't the pits? he paid $150.00 each for them Kenya.
Ol'Tye, Droolin' over double black powder rifles( where can a man get a two barrel blow tube?)
Double barrl's!
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TYRVR
- Posts: 366
- Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 3:44 pm
- Location: Shenandoah Valley of Va.
Double barrl's!
Member #3, of the "Brought Enough Gun Club"
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Jim Watson
- Posts: 765
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2003 4:08 pm
- Location: Alabama, USA
Friend of mine has a .450 BPE from P. Webley. Prolly around 1878, you can track the era by how many of the boys he brought into the firm; from P. Webley to P. Webley & Son, to P. Webley & Sons.
Plain hammers (No rebound, gotta half cock them before opening like a Sharps) Jones underlever, some neat scroll engraving, Alex Henry rifling that looks like it would spin about anything that would fit the holes.
So we read up on them.
Obviously Joe has a handle on the .450 BPE.
The other rifle with botteneck chamber is likely a 500/450 Magnum BPE but it might be a 500/450 No 1 Express or a 500/450 No 2 Musket or a 577/450 Martini. Needs a chamber cast and some measurements.
These ARE black powder calibers and I wouldn't think you need a real hard bullet. You DO need a rather light bullet. These were express rifles and bullet weight ran from 270 to 365 grains; the older the gun the lighter the standard bullet. Except the 577/450 which would likely be regulated for the service load with 480 grain bullet.
My pard gets pretty good results with the Gould Express 330 grain, but I think his Webley is old enough to really want a 270 or 300. I don't know of a commercial caster making them, sounds like a special order bullet mold. Lots of paper patch bullets in them days, too.
Plain hammers (No rebound, gotta half cock them before opening like a Sharps) Jones underlever, some neat scroll engraving, Alex Henry rifling that looks like it would spin about anything that would fit the holes.
So we read up on them.
Obviously Joe has a handle on the .450 BPE.
The other rifle with botteneck chamber is likely a 500/450 Magnum BPE but it might be a 500/450 No 1 Express or a 500/450 No 2 Musket or a 577/450 Martini. Needs a chamber cast and some measurements.
These ARE black powder calibers and I wouldn't think you need a real hard bullet. You DO need a rather light bullet. These were express rifles and bullet weight ran from 270 to 365 grains; the older the gun the lighter the standard bullet. Except the 577/450 which would likely be regulated for the service load with 480 grain bullet.
My pard gets pretty good results with the Gould Express 330 grain, but I think his Webley is old enough to really want a 270 or 300. I don't know of a commercial caster making them, sounds like a special order bullet mold. Lots of paper patch bullets in them days, too.
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50 Calshtr
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:11 pm
- Location: Savannah GA
TYRVR,
Great Guns! Now I have to admit, these black powder doubles are my first love, have four to date including an Alex Henry similar to the Rigby you fired. Try a RCBS 300 gr GC in either, they've worked well for me in both the 450 BPE and a 450 #2 Musket on a Fields falling block. NEI would also be a source for a lighter mould, I have several and they work well, especially for the odd sizes and weights. Army & Navy was a buying co-op that seved the military similar to our modern PX. They bought sporting guns from the major manufacturers, usually the plain or, at best, mid grade guns and marketed them to the military, either unmarked or marked Army & Navy. An excellent book on the subject is "Shooting the British Double Rifle" by Graeme Wright. He covers BPE, light nitro or smokeless for black, and nitro loads. Ross Seyfried who writes for "Rifle" and "Handloader" is probably one of the most knowledgable folks alive on these guns. You may want to look thru back issues for his work. Also check the proofs on the flats under the barrels, they often have the load data even on the old ones built before 1904 when it became required. Getting the right load can be challenging but fun, Wrights book explains well. Have fun, they are wonderfull examples of the art and remember, we are only temporary caretakers of these beauties.
Best
Great Guns! Now I have to admit, these black powder doubles are my first love, have four to date including an Alex Henry similar to the Rigby you fired. Try a RCBS 300 gr GC in either, they've worked well for me in both the 450 BPE and a 450 #2 Musket on a Fields falling block. NEI would also be a source for a lighter mould, I have several and they work well, especially for the odd sizes and weights. Army & Navy was a buying co-op that seved the military similar to our modern PX. They bought sporting guns from the major manufacturers, usually the plain or, at best, mid grade guns and marketed them to the military, either unmarked or marked Army & Navy. An excellent book on the subject is "Shooting the British Double Rifle" by Graeme Wright. He covers BPE, light nitro or smokeless for black, and nitro loads. Ross Seyfried who writes for "Rifle" and "Handloader" is probably one of the most knowledgable folks alive on these guns. You may want to look thru back issues for his work. Also check the proofs on the flats under the barrels, they often have the load data even on the old ones built before 1904 when it became required. Getting the right load can be challenging but fun, Wrights book explains well. Have fun, they are wonderfull examples of the art and remember, we are only temporary caretakers of these beauties.
Best
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Ray Newman
- Posts: 3818
- Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2002 1:22 pm
- Location: between No Where & No Place, WA
TVR: 50 Calshtr is correct. IIFC, the "Army & Navy" rifles were made for the military or overseas trade by the larger rifle makers, but w/o the maker’s name/stamp, engraving or some of the other high end features. Like Sears will contract for certain items from a major manufacturer, but w/ Sears name on it.
A member of the club that I formerly belonged to was a member of the Safari Club & had hunted Africa numerous times. I once had the opportunity to shoot his 8 bore double rifle. Definitely a handful & firing both barrels--individually- @ one target was enough for me. I never wanted to shoot either of his 4 bores; the 8 was enough.
His 8 was a very plain firearm, no engraving, dense wood on stock, but action opened/closed & operated like a bank vault. Inside, the lock mechanism looked like a Swiss watch.
As an aside & IIRC correctly, his 8 bore barrels were regulated for about 50-60 yds or so? He explained that the barrels were regulated to both hit @ the point of aim by soldering them together, then firing & if they weren’t hitting right, melting he solder & starting over. Definitely a laborious & time consuming task.
I can remember as teenager that every trip into NYC meant a visit to the Abercrombie & Fitch gun room. Rows of double rifle, high end double shotguns, drillings, sporting Mausers, etc. I can still see the large sofa in the center of the room w/ its end tables made from elephant legs. Had a great deal of other sporting equipment, but those older rifles always sang the Siren’s song to my ears….
A member of the club that I formerly belonged to was a member of the Safari Club & had hunted Africa numerous times. I once had the opportunity to shoot his 8 bore double rifle. Definitely a handful & firing both barrels--individually- @ one target was enough for me. I never wanted to shoot either of his 4 bores; the 8 was enough.
His 8 was a very plain firearm, no engraving, dense wood on stock, but action opened/closed & operated like a bank vault. Inside, the lock mechanism looked like a Swiss watch.
As an aside & IIRC correctly, his 8 bore barrels were regulated for about 50-60 yds or so? He explained that the barrels were regulated to both hit @ the point of aim by soldering them together, then firing & if they weren’t hitting right, melting he solder & starting over. Definitely a laborious & time consuming task.
I can remember as teenager that every trip into NYC meant a visit to the Abercrombie & Fitch gun room. Rows of double rifle, high end double shotguns, drillings, sporting Mausers, etc. I can still see the large sofa in the center of the room w/ its end tables made from elephant legs. Had a great deal of other sporting equipment, but those older rifles always sang the Siren’s song to my ears….
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RANGER RICK
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2002 9:29 pm
- Location: HOMER ALASKA
TYRVR
They sound like some nice rifles . I do have and cast .458 bullets . They are 720 plus-minus grain WFNGC just depends on what type of lube I use and grade of lead ( 20-1,30-1, WW ) . I laso have 500 and 405 grain WFNGC bullets . I shoot the 720's out of my 45-3.25 black only , they are my hunting bullets here in Alaska , The other two I use in my Marlin 45-70 Guide gun. Send a Pm for e-mail address .
RR
They sound like some nice rifles . I do have and cast .458 bullets . They are 720 plus-minus grain WFNGC just depends on what type of lube I use and grade of lead ( 20-1,30-1, WW ) . I laso have 500 and 405 grain WFNGC bullets . I shoot the 720's out of my 45-3.25 black only , they are my hunting bullets here in Alaska , The other two I use in my Marlin 45-70 Guide gun. Send a Pm for e-mail address .
RR
Practice does not make perfect !! Perfect practice makes perfect !!!!!!