Building a Hunting Rifle

[Saddlemaker]

Carrying my 12lb #1, with no sling, on last years mule deer hunt took all the fun out of the trip. I learned a lesson on what I would like to have and wonder if anyone has this type of build and their opinion.
Saddle rifle with the 26 inch round standard in 40-65 weighing about 8 1/2 to 8 3/4 pounds. I understand I might have to have a half round half octagon in order to get a sling and swivels attached. I have a buffalo trip to west Texas and a elk hunt this year with a trip to south Africa next. The reason for the caliber choice is recoil in this light of a rifle I'm thinking. Will the 26 inch barrel degrade the performance to the point it would be marginal for 500-600lb game that won't eat you.
Walt

[taw1126]

Walt:
Shiloh can/will put sling swivels on round barrels; I'm having them put on the Business Rifle I've got ordered and Kirk confirmed they can do this. What I haven't seen, though, is a "standard" round barrel: they only seem to come in the Business Rifle taper which is pretty heavy (my original .45-caliber weighs 10.5 lbs) and might be especially so in a .40-caliber. Maybe they could use the barrel from a Military Rifle to get the taper you want? Unfortunately I think the most recent run of military rifles just went into production so there's a lengthy wait ahead.

From what I've read on this board Kirk indicates a 26-inch barrel will work great for hunting. If I remember correctly he uses a .45-110 with that barrel length to hunt with.

By the way, I like your proposed configuration. I'm considering going with the Saddle Rifle configuration and a 26-inch round barrel (in .50-70) when my Shiloh goes into production, but I can't figure out why they charge an extra $100 for the round barrel on all but the Business Rifle. Besides, if I do that I'll want another $1,000 in upgrades (checkering, accent line, fancy wood, AA finish, ...).

Trey

[Josh A.]

Saddlemaker:
I hunt with a Shiloh quite a bit. My hunting rifle started out as a LRE with a standard/half 30" barrel in 40-70ss. I had the barrel cut down to 27". It has a semi-buckhorn rear and copper blade front sight. It weighs a shade under 10lbs. loaded. I had Paul Jones cut the nose off his .40 creedmoor bullet and make me a flat point hunting bullet with a .27" meplat.

I think it is just about perfect for a Sharps hunting rifle. I have killed truck loads of hogs, deer and turkeys with this rifle. I wouldn't give an elk a second thought with it. Buffalo, I don't know anything about. Looks like shooting a beefmaster bull to me.

Now while I own a perfect hunting Shiloh, its replacement has been on order with Shiloh since Dec. last. The new perfect hunting rifle will be a 26" standard octagon (I am seriously considering a 25" to 23" barrel) in the #3 configuration. That is the straight gripped model. I prefer the sleek handling of a straight grip. There will be a single trigger on this one. The wood is English walnut that I chose and sent to Shiloh. The forend will have the pewter cap. Makes the rifle heavier, but you just MUST have an attractive rifle. The action is going to Ken Hurst for engraving and will be bone pack colored. Of course the caliber will be the greatest of all the Sharps calibers, 40-70ss.


Where are you buffalo hunting in West Texas? I'm out here between Abilene and Sweetwater.

Take care,

Josh

[MLV]

For several years I had a Shiloh M1874 Military Rifle .45-70. It was the best BPCR hunting rifle I have ever owned, but I foolishly sold it. In the next week or so they will have another ready for me. They come with sling swivels and are already lightweight due to the size of the barrel, but its still 30 inches long. They are authentic too as many original Military style Sharps factory letter to Kansas and Colorado.

[Saddlemaker]

I prefer the shorter barrel as it is easier to carry in a rifle scabbard on horseback but the military style with a shotgun butt plate may be and option. I also like a single trigger of about 3lbs on my hunting rifles. The metal has to be bead blasted before blueing as I want no shiny metal spooking game 2 miles away. All my bolt guns are camo'd but I can't bring myself to spray paint my Sharps. I like a simple schnabel forend and the sights are still to be determined but I like Josh's choice.
My concern was that a short 26 inch barrel would degrade the blackpowder cartridge velocity to the point it would be marginal. It seems by reading these post's that this is not and area of concern.
Josh,
My brother in law is a retired Border Patrol Agent and has a place he hunts Buffalo South West of Fort Stockton.
Walt

[pete]

I'm not a fan of recoil either but for an all around hunting rifle I would probably go with a 45-70 or 50-70. I have an 8 1/2 lb. Lonestar rolling block in 45-70 for hunting and it's not that bad recoil wise especially since a person doesn't shoot as many rounds as with a match rifle.
I think either of these two would be better as an all around cartridge than a 40-65 especially when the animals get bigger like big mule deer, elk and definately buffalo.

I think a Hartford with a 26 or 28 in standard half round barrel, standard wood military butt would be a classy lighter weight hunting rifle.

MLV; As a side I was wondering why you're going with a 45-70 when in some of your articles and books you like the 50's for hunting? Just curious.

[Josh A.]

Pete:
To be honest I believe that the 45-70 may actually be slightly inferior to the 40-70ss as an all around hunting round. I can find zero difference in the killing effectiveness of the 45-70, 45-100 and 40-70ss that I have been shooting for the last few years. They all penetrate well, do lots of damage depending on which bullet and the alloy, and none of them will reliably knock a game animal dead on the spot. Deer and hogs are usually going to be able to make it 50-75yds. They are just as dead, but they do travel. In a mule deer on up to elk, I seriously doubt there will be a performance difference. I have never seen a big deer or an elk that had the physical construction these 300lb+ hogs do. The real difference I find is the 40-70ss is easier to hit with. Maybe one of the numbers guys can give us a trajectory comparison so we can see the difference, but the 40-70ss makes it easier to put a hole where you want it.

So let me give you what I think is the best all around maybe upt buffalo Sharps type hunting rifle.

1) Shiloh Sharps, barrel sights, copper blade front.
2) Barrel length not over 28"
3) Weight not over 10lbs., lighter the better.
4) Sling studs would be really nice.
5) 40-70ss

For the load, here is what makes the 40-70ss better (in my opinion!) than the 45-70. First, have a bullet mould cut that goes around 400grs. and has a flat point that goes around .25". The one Jones cut for me is perfect in that it still has to bore riding section and initial nose curvature of his creedmoor, but terminates in a flat point. It retains some of the aerodynamic properties of the creedmoor. Have the mould cut so that you can seat the bullet out close to the lands but not too close so that you can fire 3-5 rounds fast and hard with no blow tubing, just in case. You want those rounds to chamber even if the rifle is fouled pretty bad. The bullet should be built so that it is seated in the case with all the grease grooves covered and has plenty of neck tension. That way the individual rounds are physically robust. Mine have been known to bounce around in a coat pocket, jeep seat or the back pocket of a pair of wranglers for quite a while. I want the loaded rounds tough! By the way, put a good wad between the bullet and powder so when the rounds get real hot the lube doesn't make powder gooey. Push for velocity over 1250fps. 2Fg Goex or Cartridge will get you there pretty easy. I'd bet you could get up over 1300fps with the Swiss if you want. MLV could probably tell us exactly.

If you load like this you'll get an accurate, flat shooting round that I think is the best killer of the black powder cartridges I've shot extensively. Of course, you can develop the same sort of thing in the .45 calibers but you'd need a 550gr. bullet with a flat point to get there. Jones cut me one that started out as a Gullo spitzer, but out of a 10lb rifle, the recoil kind of knocks the fun out of me.

I can post some pictures of bullets or rifles if it would help anyone.

There's my nickles worth.

Take care,

Josh

[MLV]

Pete: No special reason for the .45-70. I've already got a .50-70 hunting rifle - a Lone Star that my wife bought me as a gift. For that matter I've also got a .45-70 Shiloh hunting rifle already. However, I put a RHO scope on it, so I don't have an iron sighted .45-70 hunting rifle. Anyway, like I said, no special reason.

The details of the rifle may be interesting to the fellow above. I actually did have it built with a shotgun butt with steel buttplate. But I did have it fitted with double set triggers. Also had the standard front sight left off and a dovetail cut so I can put one of Shiloh's that takes inserts. I'll fit it with a short staff tang sight for hunting. The sling will be wonderful! I've hunted much with these rifles and they all feel like they weigh a ton by the end of the day.

A few years back I had an original Sharps military .50-70 that factory lettered to Carlos Gove in Denver in 1872. Sharps didn't drill and tap the tangs of those militarys so I couldn't mount a peep sight on it, and my eyes were getting to the point that open sights were hard to see. That's why I sold it.

In January Clint Smith (Director of Thunder Ranch) Bob Glodt of Texas, and myself are going to meet in Nebraska and hunt bison together. We're all three going to use original Sharps .45-70s. Mine will be the one I got last year that factory letters to Dodge City Kansas. (Just threw this paragraph in for general interest.)

[Josh A.]

James M:
Here are a couple of pictures. The first is my well-worn Shiloh hunting rifle.

http://www.amerinemechanical.com/huntin ... 0-70ss.JPG

This picture shows a loaded 40-70ss round with the Paul Jones flat point bullet. A loaded 45-100 with the 45 Jones flat point. The unloaded Jones .40 bullet and one of his 500gr. Smerker with trapdoor grease grooves. I apologize for not having an unloaded .45 flat point, I don't have one here at the house, all my bullet casting stuff is over at the rifle range.

http://www.amerinemechanical.com/huntin ... 0slugs.JPG

Josh

[Josh A.]

MLV:
Speaking of slings, I've never seen a Shiloh in person with a set of swivels installed. I think Shiloh will do them in military and sporting styles. Do you have a recommendation for a full octagon sporting rifle? I'm going to add some to the Sharps I have ordered.

Thanks,

Josh

[Matthew_Q]

I think the ideal Sharps style hunting rifle for me would be one of the Little Sharps, probably in something like .30-30 with maybe a 24 or 26" barrel. I mostly hunt feral hog down here in Texas, but would be able to use it for deer and other game. .30-30 would be a decent cartridge for me here.

The Little Sharps rifles are a wonderful concept, and I'm sure they are excellent quality. The only bad thing is, those puppies are EXPENSIVE.

I wish someone would mass produce a smaller scale Sharps style rifle in some more modern cartridges for hunting... I'd buy a few!

[pete]

Hi Josh. I was mostly comparing the 45-70 to the 40-65. You do make some good points about the 40-70 SS though. Both of them have a similar velocity and looking at the trajectory charts the 40 does have an advantage of about 2 in. at 300 yds when comparing a Hoch 400 gr 40 to a Lyman 420 gr 45 both at 1300 fps. and the 40 has a little more than 40 ft lbs. more energy at that range. 300 yds is a pretty long distance in a hunting situation though. These differences aren't really that big of a deal.

I guess my logic is similar to muzzleloader logic and that is that these guns don't transmit alot of foot lbs. of energy to the animal so the bigger the hole the better.

Actually since I have two 45-70's, one Shiloh and one Lonestar, if I order another Shiloh just for hunting I would consider the 44-77.

MLV. I'm looking forward to hereing about your buffalo hunting story and if you're going to the Sandhills ranch maybe you can find out about how their hunting operation's going to run if k-bar isn't going to be doing it and let us know.

[JAGG]

S M ! He who hunts with a sling on his rifle doesn't eat meat ! I use a slip on sling to carry my rifle after the kill or i will carry al-la Viet Nam with the sling over the barrel muzzle down and butt up ready to raise and fire from my shoulder ! 26 inch barrels will cut down on your velocity depending on your powder charge and bullet ! I use 45/70 trapdoors for hunting with both 25 and 32 inch barrels i hunt woods and meadows and mountains as some call them depending on what state your hunting in ! They weight from 7.5 to 9.5lbs ! As i recall reading a BP article some time back about a hunter shooting a doe deer with a 40/65 many times at close range to put the poor critter down , I would go with a 45/70 cal ! As for buffalo the 12 lb rifle should do ! Your not going to run after the critter just shoot it ! JAGG

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Business Rifle,

45 caliber. 70-90-110 what ever turns your crank.

Mine will be in 45-110 and will kill buffalo. The 110 for a Trip to
Africa to make their power requirements.

Kenny Wasserburger

[TJW]

Guys, this is a very interesting topic. I, too, have been wondering about what would make the best configuration of a hunting rifle. In regards to the caliber and barrel length it seems to me it would really help to know the ratio of power burned to barrel length. For instance, how many grains of ff will burn per inch of 45 cal barrel? Seems that there is a point of diminishing returns there someplace with chopping the barrel shorter and shorter. It doesn't seem to make much sence to stuff 105 grains of power (and recoil) in a case and have a too short barrel that will only burn 85 gr. If anyone has any facts about this it sure would help nail down the discussion (and maybe the decision) a bit.

Cheers, TJW