What am I doing wrong?

[wwben47]

Afternoon...I am trying to load my first BP cartridges..And am ready to pull my hair out. I know the manuals tell you the steps..but when it says "bell the case mouths, charge the case, and seat the bullet"..That doesnt tell me what to do when i try it and it doesnt work...Im using brand new Redding dies. The two major problems so far are compression of the load, and seating the bullet. Here are my steps so far.
1..Lubed and sized 50 virgin cases.
2..Kept jiggering with the expander till it finally put about a 1/16 to 1/8 flare at the mouth..both 405 gr flat nose and 525 grain saecos would slip easily into the case a few 1000`s.
3..Used an old muzzleloader rifle measure set at 80 gr. to fill the case level took 83.2 gr by weight.
4..This is where things got sticky..charged case thru a 30 inch home made drop tube. Used caliper to check depth from case mouth to carge as best i could..with wad installed it was like .258
5..Measured from base of bullet to top of first grease groove . best i could tell was .457
6..subtracted .258 from .457 Got .199..So If I understand correctly I needed to compress .199 to get bullet seated to top of first grease groove.
7..Got within about .010 and figured that was close enuff to start.
8..On the Redding dies it says if you do NOT want it to crimp back the die out one full turn..Did that cause I have a taper crimp i was going to use. Ran seater plug out, slip fit the bullet, and started down with the plug a turn at a time. Got within two grooves of the top and it pulled the bullet out..repeatedly. Front of bullet is looking like a wadcutter.
9..Took die loose and adjusted the die body DOWN cause the seater plug was running out of room.
10..Seated the bullet almost to the band below the first grease groove..Where it apparently tried to roll crimp and smeared lead on opposite sides of the case.
I know this is long..but I dont want to chance damaging my rifle and this sure isnt working...Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.!!!

[Ray Newman]

From my reading of your post, it appears that you compressed the powder charge w/ the bullet.

If you did, the compression of the powder distorted the soft leaf bullet. What you need is separate powder compression dies available from Buffalo Arms.

Or if you have access to an engine lather, you can turn down a brass dowel to act as plug & thread it to fit your die set.

You could also haunt the gun shows & buy a used set of .45-2.1” die set & used the expanding die as a dedicated compression die w/ a homemade compression plug--see above.

Also mkae sure that you remove the sizing lube from the cases prior to loading.

[wwben47]

Mr Newman..Sorry I wasnt more clear about my set up..I am using ..in this order in the press :..Redding full length sizer; then a redding expander die, then a Lyman neck expander die body with a Lyman compression plug mounted in it; next a redding seating die (thats the one that is giving me fits); and followed by a (as yet unused) Redding profile crimp die.
I lubed with imperial, then after sizing wiped them off with gun scrubber. The bullets are .458, 405 gr flat points prelubed by buffalo arms. Elephant brand 2 F.; Walters .030 veggie wads. WW brass; CCI BR primers.
I ran the seating die down according to Redding directions; "against the shell holder, then backed off one full turn so it wouldnt crimp". Started witht he seater plug almost out of the die and kept easing it downtill it started seating the bullet..Then by the time i got to almost the top groove it started "pulling" the bullet out of the case. and was cutting an almost "semi wadcutter" design on the bullet nose. I ran the die back down about half a turn to give me more seating plug threads and hopefully solve the bullet pulling problem and it instead seated the bullet almost to the correct depth but put a roll crimp on it and the lead was shaved on two sides.
Im sorry to be a bother to everyone, but I am scared to death of this compression thing..Cause the thought of a space between the powder and bullet worries me. To try to simplify these first loads I am thinking about just using my measure and filling the case to a little less than .457 from the mouth, and compressing very slightly either with the bullet..or the plug.
Hope that at least makes what ive done so far a little more clear..I appreciate your advice very much.

[Matthew_Q]

It sounds like your seating die is fuct. From what it sounds like, you're doing it all correctly, but something is binding your bullets in the seating die as you reduce the OAL toward your desired goal.

I'm not so sure about using a neck expanding/compression combination die... sounds neat, but I prefer a separate die. I have just recently started my BPCR loading myself, and have not encountered any problems. It's just a little more addition and subtraction than I like... hehehe...

I started with new Starline brass, sized in my Lee FL sizer. Once sized, I primed and then ran into the powder-through expander. While in the die, I drop my charge through a 34" drop tube. Then I hand seat the wad, then run into a dedicated compression die (I think it's a Lyman universal decapper die with a .45 compression plug... from Buffalo Arms). I have that set so that the bullet will just touch it when fully seated. Next into my Lee seating die backed off just a touch to give a very light crimp or just take the bell out of the case mouth.

I've had no problems. Personally, I think your seating die sucks, or you're not compressing the powder enough so that when you go to seat the bullet, it is compressing the powder, thus deforming the bullet, and binding in your die. Measure your charge stack height with the wad on it after compressing it, and make sure it is exactly AT the bullet's seating depth.

[Matthew_Q]

One little trick you may want to try just to check your measurements:

Seat a bullet in an empty case, to your desired depth. Measure your over all length and record. (X = cartridge OAL)

Subtract the length of the case from that number. (X-Y=Z, where Y=case length)

Subtract THAT number from the total length of the bullet. (B-Z= seating depth, where B=length of bullet)

That will get you your seating depth.

Make sure your powder column is compressed to as close to that number as possible.

[dlemaster]

wwben47
It sounds to me like you may not have the correct seater plug. It doesn't seem to be the correct shape for the bullet your using, and if you are running out of threads on the seater plug before the bullet is fully seated I would think it might be for a pistol round, especially since you say your bullets are now shaped like a semi-wadcutter. Some of those pistol seater plugs are shorter than the plugs used for rifle bullets.
When you get this resolved please let us know what you found out.
Regards, Dave

[don marable]

wwben47

Take Crimping part of your die out another couple or three more turns. Back the bullet punch part of the die out several turns. In other words, set the die so that it will barely start the bullet into the case with zero crimp. Then adjust the punch part of the die down until you have the desired OAL. Then, remove the bullet punch and work with the crimp part of the die. Move it down 1/4 turn at a time until you get your desired crimp, or enough pressure to hold the bullet in place. Then place the bullet punch back into the die and move the punch down until it contacts the bullet. At this time, seat another bullet and make small adjustments if necessary.

Don

[Shiloh Sharpie]

Can you find someone to sit with you and watch what you are doing? A little hands-on will go a long way to getting you going. I do not mean to imply you cannot do it on your own, but having a 'buddy' assist is a great help. I did not hesitate to beg my BPCR partner to show me how to cast bullets after failing miserably trying it myself.

I hope you can find someone as helpful as I did.

[Gunny]

wwben47,

You've just run into a couple of roadblocks no big deal. dlemaster has this correct "I Believe" with his comment about the bullet seater not having the correct profil. This is nothing new for us that choose to load this old stuff. There is a simply fix though. Get some 5 min epoxy or quick setting JB weld or some sort of quick acting two part hard setting compound. Mix up enough of this stuff to cover the seating area of the nose punch, wait until it is ready to kick over and in some manor, I use my drill press, introduce the bullet or a bullet into the compound and let it set up. Now you will have to use some sort of release agent, or you will never get that bullet out of that stuff. Almost anything slippery will work as a release agent Pam cooking spray works good, plan old car wax paste or even wd-40 or motor oil. Once the compound has kicked over you will have a punch with a perfect profil of your bullet. There that problem is solved.

But you have another little problem, and that is the "Fact" you are a little intimadated by this whole BP loading thing. you have probably read somewhere that if yopu have "ANY" airspace you are going to ring the chamber of that Shiloh. Just ain't so and thats a fact. Now this is my personal feelings on this and while some will think it controversial I will say that I dont think it os possible to ring a chamber "WITH BLACK POWDER" smokeless is a whole nuther deal but i don't think BP will do it. My chicken load in Silhouette has a 1/4 inc airspace and I have shot hundreds and hundreds of these things and have no problems. Steve Garbe has written more than one articial on this and he agrees with me and shots some loads with an airspace. It only makes sense really, think about all of the old Shuetzen shooters and rifles almost all of these guys shot "Breech Seated Bullets" by there very nature breech seating has to have an airspace. it is not that big of a deal. and in your case you are being carefull and measuring everything probably more than once to avoid an airspace, and "IF" you mess up the airspace you are talking about in your loads would not be more than 2 or 3 thousandths, no big deal. Just be carefull measure twice and load once. Good Luck and let us know how this goes.

Gunny

[wolfie]

hey there Gunny
do you have a wad over that powder in your chicken load? if i under stand it corectly it is the wad that could compress the air between it and the bullet and do the damage.no wad no problem.
inquiring minds want to know
be good.

[Gunny]

wolfie,
There is a wad in this current load with an airspace. This load was brought about with the help of one of the best Shuetzen shooters of our day. his name is Chuck Brockway and he held the off-hand championship as well as most of the records in Shuetzen for severeal years, he also builds a hell of a sight. chuck and I worked on this load and it came about from an idea he had about breech seating. It is without a doubt the best 200 meter load you ever saw, the trouble is that is as far as the thing will shoot, but at 200 meters it is a killer. Interesting thing about Chuck, Now here is a guy that holds or has held almost all of the off-hand Shuetzen records there are, and while he doesn't shoot much Silhouette when he does he is just about the worst chicken shot you ever saw. Funny how this stuff works.

Back to the airspace though. I am of the opinion and this comes about from experiance and not just talk or rumor as I have actually shot hundreds and hundreds of these things. That BP simply does not have the pressure spike or power curve that is indusive to ringing a barrel. I hear guys say all of the time that the rung a chamber with BP, I say to all of them lets see the barrel, never once, not once has anyone ever shown me a barrel rung with BP.

I brought this up not to get anyone to experament with this, or to even give it a try. To tell the truth i see no reason to play with this. But "Ole wwben47" seemed to be worried a lot about something I dont feel he should be. After all if he does in fact end up with an inadvertant airspace it would be very small.

Gunny

[wolfie]

thanks gunny good post

[arnie]

Mabe i missed it but did any one think that the neck expander is too small and he is forcing that bullet into a case expanded for a jacketed bullet.Most die sets are made for jacketed bullets ,i always have to use a larger expanding die than the factory one .Arnie

[taw1126]

Arnie-
That's a good point. I had lousy results using cast bullets and my standard expanding die. Things have worked much, much better since I bought the Lyman M-Die.

[arnie]

I Usually use a .458 expander for .458 and .459 bullets .This usually gives me about .001 grip on the bullet, measured by measuring the neck before and after seating bullet.I get these expanders from Buffalo Arms .Arnie