Shooting Prone???

[Ken Hartlein]

I need some good advice about shooting prone and what to do with your non trigger hand/arm which for me is the left one. I've seen some shooters holding the forearm and some shooters with their left arm and hand under the butt of the gun. I'm beginning to think I'm doing it wrong, I'm holding the forearm with my left hand and I got to thinking if I didn't hold it the exact same way each time it would really effect my shooting. You guys that put your non trigger hand under the butt of the gun, are you holding the back of the stock down or just making it steady??

[Texas Shooter]

Ken:

FWIW: I use my left hand under the butt to increase steadiness of the rifle and help make very small adjustments to the aim of the rifle. For me it helps to control some of the movement caused by breathing and pulse.

I'm gald you asked this question. I will be interested in what some of the more accomplished shooters have to say.

Texas Shooter

[Josh A.]

Ken:
Most of the guys will fold their off hand under the butt of their rifle and support part of their weight on their left forearm.

Ball up your left hand into a fist, put it under the butt of the rifle and squeeze or release pressure to adjust your elevation, just like you would squeeze or release pressure on a rear sandbag off the bench.

Once you get it down, it is nearly as stable as shooting off the bench.

J

[RMulhern]

All the rifle does...is fire the shot! POSITION......shoots the score! So...if you don't have a good and CONSISTENT position...you WILL NOT shoot good scores! As for myself...I shoot off the port side and when shooting off "sticks"....I pull my right hand back under the toe of the stock to assist in stabilization of the rifle and to assist in making absolute certain that I position the rifle into my shoulder the SAME WAY each time! If a shooter that is shooting prone has to "muscle" the rifle over onto the target...the position is not correct. An NPA (Natural Point of Alignment) must be established to prevent having to "muscle" the rifle over onto the target. Having learned this....when done....when the shooter is breathing normally the front sight should move from the 6 o/clock to 12 o/clock position on the target without any undue strain to maintain this motion! If you must "rebuild" the position after each shot due to recoil...do so! This will keep you from firing too fast and over-heating the barrel! But....if a good position is developed in the initial process.....you'll learn how to handle the recoil and it will have little effect upon destroying the position. This is especially so when able to use a sling as in shooting highpower competition but in BPCR.....slings aren't allowed so it's a new learning process! My advice is to learn a position that will put your body directly behind the rifle to absorb the recoil...with the leg pulled up to "widen" your shooting base platform. BEWARE...of building a position that is too low....as this will require you to possibly duck your head too much to be able to see through the sights. This condition requires the eyeball to be raised to an unnatural position up toward the eyelid and causes undue eyestrain QUICKLY!!

Hope this helps!

NOTE: Try to learn to break the shot within 8-10 seconds after refining your sight picture because if you "over-hold" the shot and lay there and stare at the sight.....your brain will become starved for oxygen and you'll lose vision. Learn to stop your breathing at the POINT OF NATURAL RESPITORY PAUSE! This does not mean at the half-way point!!

[Gunny]

This is a good topic, and we have had some good answers. Sharpsman competed for years at high power and shot and won, I believe, some of the biggest high power matches in the land. So he knows of what he speaks. His advice is certainly from experiance.

Common marksmanship technique says that the shooter should not change position if at all possible. This holds true in any form of target shooting. Silhouette by it's vary nature will not allow the shooter to do that, that is Silhouette as we shoot it in BPCR. Silhouette as it was originally configured was to be shot off hand at all targets, and still is in High Power. The founding fathers of BPCR Silhouette realized that a bunch of fat old grey haired farts shooting 12 lb rifles probably could not stand up that long, much less shoot. They took pity on us and said "WE better let these guys lay down before they fall down". But in putting the rifle on cross sticks we create a hell of a lot of problems. problems not only with position but also with barrel harmonics, sight picture and severeal other problems. In BPCR Silhouette we are shooting at a bank of animals, they run from left to right as we address the targets. Marksmanship 101 says "Do not change your position, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE" And yet we all SHOULD change our position for every shot. Most of us seldom re position for the next animal, we tough it out. This is not a good thing. As Rick (Sharpsman) said a NPA must be established to give us a consistant shooting position and not be muscling the rifle over to the next animal. If we all would just overcome this one point on a consistant basis all of our scores would climb.

Gunny

[wwben47]

Josh, Sharpsman, Gunny..Great thread!..You guys have no idea how these little things help a "newb" like me!..I had two related questions: I shoot right handed.. In establishing the prone position..should I plan on the "point" of my right shoulder being slightly forward to give me a more "natural" rotation left to right? In other words would a line drawn through the plane of my shoulders be at say 45 degrees? Second question: I noticed for the first time today that my rifle "torques" distinctly to the left when it fires. (My smokeless rifles probably do too but I fail to notice because of muzzle jump) Is this torque something I should try to stop? (I usually maintain a pretty light grip on the wrist when bench shooting)

[Gunny]

Ben47,
Rick is probably the one that can give you the best position advice, but here let me tell you what I think, for whatever that may be worth.

You need to take a prone position that is natural, comfortable and repeatable. You need to set your sticks up where they are sguare with the center of the bank of animals as much as possible, now you don't need a plumb bob and a square contrary to some's thoughts, but close to plumb is good. We are not building a watch here we are trying to make some steele go clang and fall over.

As far as the torque of the rifle goes. You need to get a grip that is also natural. comfortable and REPEATABLE, guess which is most important? You need to hold onto that smoke pole but trying to arrest the torque is going to be a lost cause. Let the rifle recoil naturally.

And you need first and formost a lot of trigger time, this is the one thing you can not be a success without, TRIGGER TIME and lots of it.

Gunny

[RMulhern]

wwben47

The things I know pertaining to shooting prone.....work for me! This is not to say...that what I know will work for anyone else! The prone position I use for shooting 1000 yards here at home....is somewhat of a "clone" of my HP position in that my basic body position (legs and hips) is behind the rifle 100% with the exception that I draw my left leg up slightly (I shoot off the left shoulder) to form a wider position base. For me...it is not an uncomfortable position but for others....this may not be the case. I'm not a "fly-weight" by any means at 6' and 230# so my build lets me absord recoil without any problem shooting a .45/90 or a .45/110 with stiff loads. My shoulders are square with the butts...and as I have stated previously...I bring my right hand back to my left and it goes under the toe of the buttstock to help me maintain stability of the rifle. I take the time to position the sticks at the right height/angle and for a "newbie"....what must be remembered as far as I am concerned is that if the rifle/body unit is not pointed at the target.....DO NOT move just the elbows for directional control but move the entire rifle/body unit so as to keep the elbows at the same angle/width for the entire sequence of shots to be made. Consistency of position must be maintained during the entire string of shots fired. If not....group dispersion will be greatly enhanced!

Be it "far from me" to be an authority on prone shooting in the "sillywet" game for I have never fired the first event. But as Gunny has already related....in moving from left to right in shooting the various banks of targets....this within itself is enough to cause problems for any shooter because the very nature of the game and required movements have a tendency to destroy the position UNLESS....one takes the time to rebuild same for each target!! But I'd bet a smooth $1000.00 that those shooters that are consistently within the winners circle.....pay very close attention to the things I've brought up here.

As for the question pertaining to controlling recoil or noticing possibly an unusual torquing effect....in my opinion these occur when the position has been altered slightly or because the rifle has not been positioned into the shoulder the same from shot to shot! I once witnessed a top US Army HP shooter named John Mann shoot a 499 instead of a possible 500 score at Lake Jackson, Texas because he didn't reposition his Match M14 into his shoulder the same way he had on the previous 49 shots! After shooting his 50th and final round...he turned to the coach and stated...."That one didn't feel just right. I don't think I had it into my shoulder right"! He dropped the shot out into the 9 ring at 6 o/clock!!

FWIW!!!

[Kelley O. Roos]

Building a prone shooting position is subjective, meaning shooters are phycicaly built different and will require the shooter to figure out their own techniques that will allow them to be comfortable, with no straining, when shooting. The basic's for each shooter will be the same though. Watching Dave Guallo shoot, he can get low enough to put his back hand on the ground and rest the rifle toe on that hand, the hand is a fist, just like Josh pointed out. For me it's a very uncomfortable position. I like a fairly low position so when my natural breathing is done the rifle sights will align up with the target as the shot is let off. I'm right handed so my left hand is back holding the toe pulling the stock into my shoulder firmly and a very firm grip with my shooting hand with the trigger finger the only thing moving, such as a pistol shooter would do. I like the torque to be controled so the rifle will recoil straight back. I use an angle between zero and 45 degree's to the target and pull my right leg up, as sharpsman said for a stable platform and also to take the pressure off my lungs and heart.

Different strokes for different folks,

Kelley O.

[Ken Hartlein]

Dang!! What a great bunch of answers, thanks a million guys, I really mean it.

[wwben47]

DITTO what Ken said!..I learned not one but several things from this thread. one which probably should have been obvious! (Being square to the bank of targets) To give you an idea how green i am, today i shot some 405 grainers at 100 and 200...Made the adjustment from one to two and was on the paper...I was thrilled to death. How do I make the leap to 300?..Have someone watch the holes in the dirt as I "walk it up"?
Again..Thanks a lot for all the info.

[Gunny]

Ben,

While I don't have any sight settings for a 405 grn bullet. Here is a simple rule of thumb that will almost alays get you damn close. Silhouette shooters shoot chickens at 200 meters now that is a little further than your 200 yds but not enough to worry about so here it is. Take your chicken setting or 200 meters and come up 15 points on your sight and this will be real close to the pig which is 300 meters, from this 300 meter pig stting come up another 15 points for the turkeys or 385 meters, and then from there to the rams or 500 meters add another 20 points. While you will have to do a little fine tunning of these as I said they will get you in the ball park. Good Luck!!

Gunny

[Texas Shooter]

To All:

Thanks for the tips. This has been an exceptional thread and one that I will be saving. Implimenting these particular rules will certainly improve my shooting skills.

If you can add anything more please feel free, there are plenty of sponges out here looking to soak up some great tips.

Thanks again,

Texas Shooter

[Bumper]

On top of all the good advice already given ALL shooters must practice, practice, practice. I have gone away from shooting off the bench and now prefer to shoot from crossed sticks as this is how I will shoot in a match. If at all possible get an experienced shooter to observe you when you are getting into position to shoot. At the end of a string of shots the observer can tell you about the consistancy of your position (both head,body, and arms), this information can help you become a better shooter. Rbump