A non BPCR question

Texas Shooter · Post by **Texas Shooter** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:03 pm

Hello:

Since many of you are well schooled in firearms, I thought I would try and gather some information regarding some WWII Japanese rifles.

My Great Uncle brought back from Iwo Jima two Japanese Rifles. Both 7.7mm bolt action.

A friend of mine brought by one he has had in the family since WWII. It appears the same except it looks like it has a metal piece that covers the action area. You can tell the bolt is open, but with the "cover" in place you cannot work the action, check the breach, load the rifle or anything else. I was wondering if any of you were familiar with this type of rifle and this type of "cover" piece.

I thought it might be designed to keep dirt/sand out of the action, but I'm not sure.

I didn't want to try and force it off without knowing what I was doing. When I looked at my two rifles, I could see that these receivers could accept one of the "Covers" as well.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Texas Shooter

powderburner · Post by **powderburner** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:49 pm

if nobody knows here you might try www.castboolits.com if that doesnt work for you drop me an email and I'll try to link it to you again....Dean

kamotz · Post by **kamotz** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:10 pm

Hi T.S. , I vaguely remember hearing or reading about the Japanese disdain for that bolt cover that came attached to their rifles. Most would have been removed by the troops themselves, because they rattled and the reasons you just mentioned. Your rifle would have had one originally, but was removed, your freinds rifle may not have been issued. Is it in good condition? This may be a question for Gunny to go more indepth on as a Marine...Hell, they were there!

Omak Cowboy · Post by **Omak Cowboy** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:16 pm

What you have is almost certainly an Arasaki. My father in law brought one back after being in Toyko in 1945 with MIS.
Omak

LJBass · Post by **LJBass** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:40 pm

Texas Shooter,
What you have are Arisaka rifles. The bolt cover you described was often discarded by soldiers in the field because it rattled and could easily lead to their demise if they let that happen. Many Arisakas have been imported in recent years. The imports have had the imperial chrysanthimum ground off the top of the receiver. If yours have the chrysanthimum intact they might have some collector value. As a side note the receivers on these rifles are tremendously strong. I have personal knowledge of one that was rebarreled to 30-06 and then had 20 rounds of 7.7 ammo fired through it without blowing it up.
Regards, LJ

Gunny · Post by **Gunny** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:56 pm

Kamotz,
Well the Marines where damn sure there, but this Marine would have been a little young hell I was born in 1947 and didn't join the Corps until 1965. So that is one war I did miss.

Texas Shooter,
Even though I wasn't there, the rifle you have is probably a Type 99 Arisakas. The "Dust" covers are pretty rare today as even the Japs through all of that useless crap away. You never want to have to hump any more than you have to. Today the dust cover could be worth just as much as the rifle, it snaps into grooves milled into the reciever. These grooves are one of the few ways to tell an Infantary Type 99, from a Navy Type 99, but even this doesn't always work as some of the T99 Navy trainers had these grooves as well. UInless you plan on shooting the thing, and I can't imagine why you would want to do that, leave the cover on the rifle it is worth a hell of a lot more with than without.

Gunny

Omaha Poke · Post by **Omaha Poke** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:40 pm

Tex , Gunny is absolutely correct. Don't fire it, don't try to remove anything, and get it appraised by an expert. Don't take the first offer that sounds like good money for it. Some of those rifles that are intact and with the Imperial Crysanthemum still on the receiver are worth some bucks. Get a half dozen different evaluations, and don't sell it to the first BOB (bend over bob) that you meet. There is an Arisaka expert here in the Seattle area that would probably drool over that rifle, and if you would like I can put you in touch with him. If I can find his address. Randy

Omak Cowboy · Post by **Omak Cowboy** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:55 pm

Gunny, you were born in '47. Sonofagun, that makes you older 'n me. How bout that!

Now I just have to tell a story here.

My father in law, now 78 or 79, is second generation Japanese American so in '42 he and another 110,000 American citizens were rounded up and sent off to "camp". Dad managed to get out of camp to go the the U. of Arkansas - he wanted to go to I think the U of Chicago but of course the Manhatten Project was going on so not a chance in hell on that one.

So, off to college..but then he gets drafted! I can only imagine his feelings on that one! Next stop, US Army and MIS where he ends up working for Mac in Toyko. He has some old photos taken at the time with a big GI ( Dad's about 5" 8" and 130 lbs ) looking at dad who he thinks is getting too close to Mac's car.

Anyway, so dad's working in MIS when one day an MP comes into the building and tells dad "Some Jap's out there and want to see you - he's trying to tell me he's some kind of relative of yours." Clearly the MP isn't buying any of it, but dad does go outside and sure enough it's a cousin who has traveled something like two days to see dad. Dad askes if the cuz has eaten- meaning had he eaten today, and in the usual Japease way the fellow scratches his head, trying to avoid answering because it's been more than one day but he doesn't want to ask for anything. Dad figures this out pretty quick and tells the guy he can't taken in into the mess but he'll get a jeep and the cuz should wait there. This gets done and dad brings out several trays of food - SPAM yet, which to this day dad won't touch for any reason. HATES IT! But the cuz is chowing down big time, goes through three lunches and turns to dad and says "Say, you guys eat pretty good!" Dad still loves to tell this story.

Anyway, fast forward to three years ago. My shooting partner, Ger had just passed away but just before had sold off some of his guns. Dad wanted a little M1 Carbine like the one he carried in Japan. I got one and dad drove up to Seattle with his youngest son in the 1965 Ford stationwagon that is STILL in the family.

As dad is standing in my kitchen looking at the carbine he turns and says, "Say, there was a full size rifle most of the guys carried. Do you have one of those?". Yes, two in fact, and I brought one up from the gun room. SO here stands 75 year old Kiyo, all 125 lbs, and two heart attacks later doing the manual of arms. He finishes up and looks at me with that little smile i've seen on old mens faces, and says.: "hmmm, guess some things you just don't forget."

Kiyo is a remarkable man and there is a whole lot more to his story. But I'll save that for some other time.
Omak

Omaha Poke · Post by **Omaha Poke** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:45 pm

Gunny, you pup you

I was already chewing on bones and eating real food when you were born

So Quit calling me son, son

. I am old enough to be your older brother. As a matter of fact I think I will start treating you like the kid you are

. Just joking, boy. Randy

Gunny · Post by **Gunny** » Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:28 am

Poke,

Well "Son" I always wanted a brother, but he would have to shoot Swiss powder.

Gunny

Texas Shooter · Post by **Texas Shooter** » Sun Aug 15, 2004 2:45 am

To All:

Wow! Thanks for the great information. For some reason I knew you guys would know this.

The type "99" is exactly correct in all three rifles. My two Do have the Imperial Crysanthemum on them but no dust cover, but his has the dust cover and no Crysanthemum. The rifle his has certainly looks used, but maybe it's only on the exterior?

We were both wondering why his had been ground off. I just had no idea.

Can the cover be removed temporarily so he can service the rifle, or should he just clean it from the muzzle and leave it alone?

Texas Shooter

Texas Shooter · Post by **Texas Shooter** » Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:33 am

Omak Cowboy:

Great Story!!

It's a real shame so many of the fine people who served in WWII are quickly passing on. I have personally gained a lot of insight and wisdom from that generation.

Texas Shooter

Gunny · Post by **Gunny** » Sun Aug 15, 2004 9:30 am

TS,
The fact that two of these rifles have the "Imperial Crysanthemum" or MUM as most collectors call them today is also very rare. There are severeal storys about the removal of this "mum". Some collectors say the Japs ground this off right before the rifles where captured as a way to save face, others say the American high cammand ordered all of these ground off as a way for the Japs to save face, and there are a couple of other stories about the grounding off of these "Imperial Crysanthemum". But it is commonlly accepted that the "Imperial Crysanthemum" raises the value of any of these rifles, by a great amount to collectors of this Jap stuff. Most collectors today feel that any rifle with the Imperial Crysanthemum " intact is probably a battlefield weapon as apposed to a surrendered weapon. As to the "Dust Cover" don't mess with it and don't clean the rifle any more than running an oily patch down the barrel. While the dust cover is removable dont take the chance of messing this very rare piece up.

Gunny

Omak Cowboy · Post by **Omak Cowboy** » Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:28 pm

Gunny, I could be wrong on this but I believe the word you are looking for in reference to the Imperial Crest is a "Mon", pronounced MOAN.

Familles of Samurai ancestry were granted the right to have a crest which was put on personal armor, pieces of weaponry, clothing, and so one. There are books of these, just as in European heraldry, though the European models tell more of the family story and are much more complex.

The more often seen themes would be a group of arrows-always in an odd number, or an article of nature such as in my wife's family a cluster of oak leaves arranged in a triad and surrounded by a circle.

A Mon is a serious issue with a Samurai family, as it represents in part Bushido, and is treated with great respect, in a way much like those here value their good name and honor. I should also note here that it is my opinion that Bushido has been greatly misunderstood both here and in Japan over the past years. I have very strong feelings about this, having followed this path nearly 40 years. There were men who fought with great bravery on both sides of the war, but those who called themselves "Samurai' and butchered innocents deserve nothing but to have their graves spat upon.

On a lighter note, I recall from kendo class years ago the teacher lent a student one of his sets of armor, which had his family crest on the chest piece, but made it clear to the student that he had a week to remove the crest and was not to wear the armor in class or in public without first removing the design.
Omak

Gunny · Post by **Gunny** » Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:58 pm

Cowboy,
No the word is "MUM" the only meaning I know of for this word is collectors think the "Imperial Crysanthemum" looks kinda like a mum flower so thet have shortened the phrase "Imperial Crysanthemum" to the shorter word for the flower Mum as a form of slang. At least that is my understanding of it.

Gunny