Unique in Rifles

[joeb33050]

Hi;
I just read on the cast bullet list that Unique causes rings in the chamber of rifles, and that Shiloh and Ruger are aware of the problem.
Are you aware of this happening?
I've been using Unique in my Sharps 45/70 for many years, and can't see any chamber rings, but I want to know if I must stop.
Thanks;
joe b.

[Kirk]

Good morning Joe, first of all I don't care for Unique powder being used in cartridges that it's not recommended for. Second, the only way you will ring your chamber, is to push a wad way down on top of the powder. With the low volume of powder this causes quite an air gap between the bullet and the wad. When the sparkplug fires the wad starts rolling and the bullet sets still awaiting pressure. The pressure gets way big before the bullet gets a chance to move and the air goes some where and the only place to go is outward causing a ring right where the wad almost meets up to the bullet before the bullet heads down the barrel. If you keep shooting it the way you have been you will never have a problem!!

[joeb33050]

Hi Kirk;
Unique has been recommended for 45/70 use since at least 1958.
I've used 14-15 grains of Unique with bullets from 300 to 525 grains in maybe 6-7 rifles, most often with and currently with a dacron wad tamped down over the powder.
I've never seen a chamber ring in any of my guns, or those of others.
However, it has been reported that Unique rings 45/70 chambers, without wads, and that Shiloh and Ruger know about this.
Is it so? Do they?
joe b.

[Josh A.]

Joe, you just heard from Shiloh. Kirk is the head duck.

J

[Kirk]

Hi Joe, you didn't mention a wad in your first post. Dacron is like air, so their is no problem. I was talking about a card, felt or wonder wad on the powder and believe me, it will happen. No wad at all, this is not going to cause a ring. You may want to watch for that sneaky little, when it's your turn detonation problem that some folks talk about, but have not yet made happen in a controlled environment.
I have not yet seen a reputable reloading manual recommend unique in the 45-70, I am talking about, Hodgdon, Hornady, and those type of outfits.


P.S. I have replaced tubes on quite a number of ringed guns in the last 15 years, they have all been caused by a hard wad substance pressed down on the powder, most times on pistol or shotgun powder, you know less powder, cheaper shooting!!!!! Thanks Kirk

[Bearbait2]

Mr. Kirk,
Just a note in passing. Our 45th Edition of "Lyman Reloading Handbook" of 1970 shows a number of loads featuring Unique for the .45-70.

1873 Springfield (Trap Door Models) Barrel Length of 32 1/2 inches:
385gr Cast Start: 10.0gr (1048fps) Max: 15.0 (1335fps)
482gr Cast (w/Gas Check) Start: 9.0gr (892fps) Max: 13.0gr (1114fps)
552gr Cast (w/Gas Check) Start: 9.0gr (844fps) Max: 12.0gr (1012fps)
405gr Jacketed Start: 11.0gr (890fps) Max: 15.0gr (1223fps)

It also lists loads using Unique for the 1886 Winchester.
We have been using these guide lines for over 30 years with no problems whatsoever. Any problems noted by anothers use invaribly involved the use of some sort of wad over the powder, as you stated.
Best Wishes.

[Kirk]

Hi Bearbait, you are completely right about Lyman's older reloading manuals. I don't know, so I'm asking, do they still publish this loading data in their newer manuals? I do know that alliant recommends it in shotshells and handguns as a secondary use. Hope to hear back on this.Thanks, Kirk

[Bearbait2]

Hi Kirk,
Our Lyman "Cast Bullet Handbook" (Third Edition) of 1980 is the latest we have available. It also has loading data for the .45-70, .50-70, .50-90, and .50-140 using Unique. Perhaps someone else can chip in here with information on today's books.
Over the years (in our research of "accidents"), one other problem has cropped up from time to time when using Unique in large cases. That being inattention to detail (task at hand) and dropping in a double or triple charge of powder. We believe this has probably wrecked more firearms than misuse of wads.
Best Wishes.

[Ray Newman]

In the Fall 2004, issue No. 47, of the "SPG Black Powder Cartidge News," (pp.14-5), there is an interesting article on this phenomenon.

Too bad there isn't a powder company who could market an effective case filling, low pressure White Powder proplellant like those of the late 1890s-early 1900s....

[Kirk]

Thanks for the response Bearbait. From your writing I'm guessing you work for Lyman! This is good information to have on this board and the most important part is over charges that can happen to anyone. I guess thats why I like having a double charge overflow the case. Thanks for the info. Kirk

[Lee Stone]

I'll tell you what, it sure is annoying to lift up the drop tube and have that "second charge" come pouring out all over the table. But it is comforting to know it can't be in the case.

[Bill Falk]

Howdy, Here's the data from Lyman's 44th edition 1967 for an original Winchester 1886 in excellent condition using Unique. otherwise use Trapdoor loads.

fps , velocity w/max load
292gr cast start 18.0 max 20.0 1689
385gr cast start 14.0 max 17.0 1408
482gr cast GC start 13.0 max 16.0 1242
552gr cast GC start 12.0 max 14.0 1100

Regards

[Bill Falk]

Howdy, Here's the data from Lyman's 44th edition 1967 for an original Winchester 1886 in excellent condition using Unique, otherwise use Trapdoor loads. Lyman's 48th edition 2002 does not list Unique for 45-70.

****************************** fps,velocity w/ max load
292gr cast start 18.0 max 20.0 ******* 1689
385gr cast start 14.0 max 17.0 *********** 1408
482gr cast GC start 13.0 max 16.0 ************* 1242
552gr cast GC start 12.0 max 14.0 ********** 1100

Try again, computer rearranged the data.

Regards

[don marable]

Kirk and other interested parties:

The 46TH Edition of the Lyman Reloading Manual, copyrighted in 1982, lists several loads for the 45-70 actions comparable to the Ruger #1using Unique powder for both cast and copper jacket bullets. It also lists loading using Unique for the 45-120 using a jacted bullet only, and the 50-70, 50-90, and 50-140 using cast bullets.

If you have more detailed interest, I will be glad to send the exact recipes listed.

Don

[VAshooter]

I've always heard that a specific powder made at one time may not be exactly equal to the same powder made years later and it is always best to use a reloading manual that was printed around the same time that the powder was made.
I'm not sure that it is important with slow burning powders but the hot pistol powders like Bullseye can really magnify the differences.
I usually update my manuals every few years and was suprised how many people were using 20/30 year old reloading manuals. Of course, I still have all my old manuals too.