Difference between the 1863 and the 1874 Sharps

Rabert · Post by **Rabert** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:22 am

Although your website is nicely designed and offers a lot of information, I'm missing more detailed descriptions about the special properties of the Sharps produced by Shiloh which distinguishes them from each other.

Since I live in Germany I cannot just purchase a 1874 Sharps, because this is a weapon regulated by law, other then 1863 Sharps which can be bought by everyone older then 18 years without any hassle.

I understood that most people posting here own and shoot 74's, and I think for a reason. What are this reasons, compared to a '63? What distinguishes the 1863 from a 1874 besides the cartridges and the price? Material, performance, production processes, finish?

Best regards

Rabert

mrrangerman · Post by **mrrangerman** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:02 pm

Rabert

Hi and welcome,

The model 74 takes a cartradge like modern guns, and comes in many different cals. the 63 does not, it is more like a muzzle loader, except you load it from the breach end. It takes a musket cap, and you can get it in only two cal 50. 54.

If I had to guess the reason your country set the dates on what gun you could buy, it would be to limit you to just muzzle loaders.

Good Shootin
Dan

Hidehunter · Post by **Hidehunter** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:24 pm

To expand on what mrrangerman said, the 1863 might be considered a 'transitional' design. It is not a muzzleloader nor is it a metallic cartridge rifle. It uses a 'cartridge' made of paper which contains the measured powder charge and bullet. This paper cartridge is loaded (as a unit) in the breech just like the '74 Sharps. As the lever is lifted the edge of the breechblock shears off the back of the paper cartridge. Once the breechblock is closed the rifle is fired by the use of a percussion cap. The breechblock has a flash hole leading from the cap to the powder charge. In short, the 1863 loads something like a metallic cartridge rifle and fires like a muzzleloader.

I don't know how the law works in your country but the "1874" Sharps was actually introduced in 1871. And to make matters even more confusing the 1871 "1874" Sharps was a slightly improved version of the 1869 model. So the design of the '74 Sharps (metallic cartridge version) actually goes back to 1869.

The 1863 and 1874 Sharps are similiar in apperance and the basic operation of the breechblock and lock mechanism is the same. There are numerous, but minor technical differences. Many percussion era (1863 and earlier) Sharps were converted to fire metallic cartridges. These conversions were done by the original Sharps company and others. Surplus and "leftover" parts from the percussion rifles were sometimes 'recycled' and used in the 1874 models.

Rabert · Post by **Rabert** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:47 pm

Thank you for your answers Dan and Hidehunter. It was new to me that the 1874 design actually was introduced in 1871 already and is based on the 1869 design. However, it is undisputed here in Germany that you need official approval to buy a 1874.

I know about the cartridge difference between the 1863 and the 1874 and actually I just like those paper cartridges. What I'm wondering about is the question, wether the 1874 actually does shoot better then the 1863. What are the fallbacks of the 1863 are compared to the 1874 (and I do not necessarily consider the paper cartridge as a fallback).

Additionally I wonder what the reason is for the considerably lower pricetag on the 1863. Is it build with lower standards? Is it generally a poorer performing weapon? Is it just a simpler, less sophisticated construction which can be produced with lower costs?

On a sidenote: There is 1863 Shiloh Sharps (looks like a 1863 PERCUSSION SPORTING RIFLE) just offered in an auction here in Germany ([url=http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=252142]Link[/url]). Actual bid is 501 Euros (around 600 USD), but this auction will run for some more days. What confuses me a bit is the statement that this is a .45 cal weapon, which is not offered at Shiloh's presently. Was there a time you could buy this rifle as a .45? Or could it be a typo of the seller?

Best regards

Rabert

Amigo · Post by **Amigo** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 8:33 pm

Hi
Yes the Shiloh 63 Sharps was manufactured in 45cal at one time.Shiloh has recently reintroduced the 63 Sharps after an absence of ten years, to focus on the backlog of the 74 Sharps, and now is chambered for 50 and 54cal only.The 45, 63 on auction would be either a rifle built by the original
owner of Shiloh Sharps before the company was bought out by the current
owners of Shiloh or one of the last 63 Sharps to be made before they were discountinued for a while.
The quality of the 63 Shiloh Sharps is the same as the 74(I am only speaking of the Shiloh 63s and not the Italian copies) and is a very accurate rifle once you have developed the right load for it.If you look closely at the price of the standard Shiloh 63 sporting rifle you will find that its price is the same as the standard #3 74 sporter,business rifle and so on.Also the military version is actually a couple of hundred dollars more than the standard sporter.Now if you want to add some extras , like I did, it brings the price up considerably, ie pewter forend tip, patchbox, fancy wood, finish and so on.
Like I mentioned earlier this applies only to the Shiloh 63 Sharps as some of the Italian copies can only be described as miserable junk.Pedersoli makes a decent 63 Sharps but it can t hold a candle to a Shiloh 63.In my opinion you can t go wrong with a Shiloh percussion Sharps, in fact the reason Shiloh brought them back was because there was a demand for them.Shiloh made the 63s first and such was the case that people liked them so much it lead them to introduce the 74 Sharps a few years later.

Hope this helps.

Amigo

Rabert · Post by **Rabert** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:10 am

Thanks, Amigo, for your information. You're right, the 63's are in fact not that much cheaper then a '74...

You mentioned an interesting thing about Shiloh Sharps - that it has a history. Is there something known about the history of this company? How old is it, who did found it, when it why was it sold to its present owners, who are the present owners, have there been more then one other owner before...

The Shiloh Sharps 1863 rifle you can see at [url]http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=252142[/url] has a .45 cal and a round 30" barrel. There are pictures on that page. Does anyone know when such rifles where sold? On one of the pictures you can see the case with a strange form of the upper left piece of the case, for me it looks like something has broken there. Or is that design? Anybody knows?

Best regards

Raberts

Hidehunter · Post by **Hidehunter** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:07 pm

I'm certainly not an expert on the history of the company but here goes. As I understand it Shiloh began in the mid 1970's as part of a New York tool manufacturing company. Another company (C. Sharps Arms) did the marketing, at least in the Western USA. Around 1983 Shiloh moved to their present location in Big Timber, Montana. About that time Shiloh 'parted ways' with C. Sharps Arms, who then established a competing Sharps replica rifle business across the street in Big Timber. The current owners of Shiloh bought the company in the early 1990's when the original owner decided to retire. Of course I've probably gotten some of the details wrong but that's the short story.

Shiloh is a family run business and a classic American success story. The products of the company reflect the benefits of both mass production and hand crafted artistry.

As for the 1863 pictured in the link you posted, the upper left piece is most likely the remnants of an automatic primer dispensing device. Earlier versions of the Sharps design featured this device, which was affixed to the lockplate. The primer dispenser didn't work out as well as planned and was discontinued. The automatic primer dispensing mechanism was removed from most of the rifles, leaving the piece you see on the lockplate.

Hidehunter · Post by **Hidehunter** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:17 pm

I neglected to mention that original Sharps Rifle Company went out of business in the early 1880's. The original Sharps Rifle Company went through a major move (from Hartford to Bridgeport CT.) as well as at least one major reorganization during its lifetime.

Neither Shiloh nor C. Sharps Arms has any direct lineage to the original Sharps Rifle Company. C. Sharps Arms holds the legal rights to the famous "Old Reliable" trademark as used on the Bridgeport-era (1876 - 1882) Sharps rifles. This is a result of modern day copyright laws and is NOT an indication of any relationship between C. Sharps Arms and the original Sharps Rifle Company, as some seem to believe.

It is interesting to note that Shiloh has produced far more of the 1874 model rifles than the original Sharps Rifle Company produced during its lifetime.

Rabert · Post by **Rabert** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:53 pm

Hello Hidehunter,

thank you very much for your information. I'm a bit astonished that the brand "Sharps" wasn't protected at all. That's a rare find for a business man, indeed.

Isn't it funny that there are two Sharps companies just across the streets? Unbelievable. Just imagine what could be done if they would rejoin together and combine talents, customer base and financial ressources...

But well, humans are not rational all the time, are we?

Best regards

Rabert

Hidehunter · Post by **Hidehunter** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:55 pm

The name "Sharps" comes from the name of the man who devised the basic design of the rifle, Mr. Christian Sharps. Christian Sharps died in 1874, having lost control of the company years earlier.

Patent and trademark protection only lasts for so long. That's why Shiloh (and anybody else) can make and sell exact copies of the original and use the name "Sharps." The name "Sharps" has probably been in the public domain for well over 100 years. A case could also be made that "Sharps" is a generic term for a particular type or class of rifle and therefore uneligible for patent or trademark protection.

This is Shiloh's website and C. Sharps Arms is a direct competitor. So it's not in good taste to discuss them at length on this board. I mentioned them beacuse they played a part (however minor) in Shiloh's history. And it's interesting to have 2 rivals staring across the street at each other in a small Montana town. As for pooling resources, we look at things a bit differently here in the USA. Competition is good for the customer.

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:06 pm

At one time, Shiloh Sharps & C. Sharps were one and the same company. For one reason or another, the partnership was split.

My C. Sharps/Shiloh Sharps 1874 (purchased in 1986) has its original barrel marked "C. Sharps" & the receiver marked "Shiloh Sharps, Big Timber, Montana."

Rich Siegel · Post by **Rich Siegel** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:55 pm

Just as a point of interest, C Sharps does not make a percussion (1863) Sharps model, only metallic cartridge gun.

My opinion only is that the paper cartridge Sharps are not as accurate as the cartridge guns. You cannot compress the powder for extremely good uniform burn rate. That said, accuracy is good enough for hunting out to 100 to 150 yards. It just depends what type of accuracy you are interested in. My '63 Shiloh carbine will shoot 3" groups with the issue military shights and 3 1/2 pound trigger pull. I also had a '63 rifle that would do the same but others on the 1863 section of this board have done better. You might want to read that forum.

Rich