Long Range Express in 30-40 Krag

[Mark Ullrich]

Could someone help me with some recipes for my Long Range Express in 30-40 Krag? I don't think the reloading manuals' info for the 30-40 Krag takes advantage of this rifle's capabilities.

[Texas Shooter]

Mark:

Just for grins, I'm looking forward to the BP vs. smokeless powder debate on this one.

Do you know what the usable range is for the 30-40?

I would think that for long range (500+ yards), at black powder velosities, it might not work very well.

I look forward to the replies.

Texas Shooter

[Rich Siegel]

Mark,

I got my Shiloh '74 military carbine in 30/40 last March and have been experimenting all summer. With jacketed bullets, I get very good accuracy from the little carbine with open sughts. Here are some of my loads (none show signs of pressure);

125 gr Sierra with 40.3 gr Accurate Arms 2495 Clocked at 2410FPS

150 gr Hornady, 40.4 gr IMR 3031

180 gr Sierra, 44.5 gr AA 4350

200 gr Speer, 35.5 gr IMR 3031. Very accurate load.

I have not had great success yet with lead bullets. My goal was to develop a light load using cheap commercially cast bullets. I got some 165 grain plain base flat nose bullets, used by the Cowboy shooters in the 30/30, and got fair accuracy (under 3" at 100 yards). Used 10.5 gr and then 12 gr. of Unique. I then tried IMR 4227, 4198,2400, and AA5744 but got no where.

I then bought 100 gas checked 190 gr lead commercial bullets. With this bullet, I got under 3" groups using 23 gr of AA 5744 and also 28 gr of AA 5744. I then tried a load listed for the 303 Brit cartridge, 40.3 gr of AA 2495 and got a fair group but the bullet was chronoed at 2310 fps. Too fast in my mind for the lead bullet. I want to try 36 to 38 gr of AA 2495 with that bullet but have run out of bullets and have not been able to buy more (store was out). I bought a Lee 190 gr GC mould but have not tried bullets from it yet.

My overall conclusion, so far, is that the rifle is great with jacked bullets but not as good as the larger calibers with lead bullets. The barrel twist seems to like higher velocity rounds. Recoil with the 125 and 150 Gr bullets is mild but things get exciting with the full power 180 and 200 Gr bullets in the light carbine. With the 200 gr bullets, sighted in 3" high at 100 yards still puts you on at 200 yards. This was my deer load this year but didn't see a deer. The carbine is great to carry through the woods. One day, I switched off and took my 50/70 Shiloh Saddle rifle. After climbing some small Maine hills and carring the rifle for a couple of hours, I came to realize that rifle is best in a stand and the carbine is great at still hunting and just general fun carring in the woods.

Well, off for a week to my daughter's for the holiday. Will check back on next week.

Rich

[Capt. Call]

The 30-40 Krag was the first gun I hunted with when I was 12. And the first two buck I got fell to it also.....there is a special place in my heart for this fine old cartridge.

It has been a while since I did any shooting with my gun and even longer since I did any reloading for it. But it is where I got my start at reloading metallic cartridges when I was 17.

According to my old records (can't believe I kept them back then or still have them) I used two loads:

180gr RN Hornady
49grs IMR 4350
Winchester Primers

150gr RN Hornady
52grs IMR 4350
Winchester Primers

It also says the same weight bullets in Spire Point grouped a little better but sometimes jammed up if I didn't work the bolt hard and fast.

I don't know that this will be any help though. I am sure I got these loads out of an old Lyman Reloading Manual but back the DuPont owned IMR Powder and things have change since then.

If I were to start over...hold on ..got an Idea....I just looked at my 46 Edition Lyman and those loads are still in there!.....wouldn't start over ..... worked back then...give them a go!

From what I have learned from BP so far, if I were to try it I would load it with as much Goex Cartridge as I could cram into that little case behind a 220 gran cast bullet. Might make a neat little Pop-Gun out to about 300 yards....but that might be stretching it a little....don't know for sure.

[TYRVR]

My favourite rifle is a Model 1894 4 digit serial numbered Krag. I shoot it better than any gun I have ever owned. I have only one load, it is a reduced load as I would rather hit slow than miss fast, I use W-W cases all from the same lot, 210M Federal primers, 35 grains of IMR 4895 with a pea sized ball of polyester pillow filling on top of the powder to keep the powder over the flash hole, I use old DCM 174 Gr. BT match bullets that have been pulled from cases and are sold on the net for a pittance, otherwise I would use the 168 Gr, BT match Hornady bullet, I get a friend to moly coat the old DCM bullets, makes the clean up quick and easy.
I own MANY rifles, but when I need 100% accuracy in a rifle I can carry.....it is the Krag.

[Ray Newman]

First:

Are you shooting lead or full metal patched bullets (AKA Jacketed)?

Are you loading BP or White Powder (AKA Smokless/Nitro)?

Then, I think what you need to do is determine the twist of the barrel.

Once you have the twist, look thru the loading manuals for a bullet & load combination for that twist & go from there w/ sample reloads.

30 caliber barrels come in a variety of twists & usually will shoot better w/ a higher velocity load. See previous poster’s post.

All bets are off, if you’re trying to load w/ BP. BP & the .30 bore can lead to some serious fouling issues.

Once knew a Shooter who had a Ruger #3 & he shot a Duplex load ion .30-40 to control the fouling. Never met or saw another .30-40 shooter who ventured to line or afield w/ straight BP.

Or you could call Shiloh & see what they have to say.

The only .30-40 that I have is a very late Springf’d. inf. rifle. W/ a GI issue type load, it shot very well @ 200yds, but the 200 grn bullet ‘got old fast‘. It held its own w/ a 180 grn bullet if pushed.

[Ray Newman]

As an aside, I have seen some posters claim that the .30-40 Krag round was originally a BP round. However, they never posted any references to such.

Has anyone everr seen anything in print from a reputable source(s) as to whether the .30-40 had a BP origin?

[Texas Shooter]

Ray Newman

From what I learned on this forum, the 30-40 has ALWAYS been a smokeless round. The "40" designation was a hold over from the BP days. Since they found that the smokeless powder was a different animal, the "40" or "Powder Charge" information was dropped from then on.

Texas Shooter

[TYRVR]

I remember reading someplace that the grains of powder terminology with the early smokeless loads was like the shotgun loads still in use today...they were meant as a black powder equivalent.

[Ray Newman]

TYRVR & Texassshooter: I know ‘bout the powder & dram equivalencies markings. The ’thutty-thutty’ is another of these cartridges.

I think this is were the alleged BP origins of the .30-40 Krag originate. However, some posters still claim that the .30-40 was developed as a BP round. As I said, I’d like to see reputable references….

[Trigger Dr]

May 1961 and January 1967 issues of SHOOTING TIMES had an article by Ken Waters entitled "SMOKELESS LOADS FOR BP RIFLES" This article was reprinted in the Single Shot Exchange issue march 2003. Under the heading of Group IV Single shot rifles- strong action models the 30-40 Army is listed with 2 bullets and 2 loads.

169gr cast GC No.311413...14 gr 4227
150 gr jacketed ..........35.5 gr. 4895
Is the 30-40 Army the same as the 30-40 krag? If not, this may be the start of the BP idea.
Jim

[Ray Newman]

Trigger Doc: the .30-40 Krag & the .30-40 US Army are the same.

However, I also seen some very old GI wood ammo boxes, marked ".30 US Army". I have a repirnt of the Ideal #27 handbook & it talks of the .30 Army for the m1898 Springfield.

[Ray Newman]

Trigger Doc to clear up some additional confusion, Krag Jorgensen is not the same as Christine Jorgensen….

[Trigger Dr]

thanks Ray, I was real worried about the possible relationship.
Jim

[8iowa]

"Take note that the 30-40 did not survive the change from blackpowder to smokeless. It started it."

This is the lead in header for the 30-40 loading data on page 167 of "Popular Sporting Rifle Cartridges" by Clay Harvey. The data given here is for the original single locking lug Krag rifle and therefore do not exceed 40,000 CUP. The original Krag was loaded with the long 220 grain RN bullet and therefore has a long throat that can create accuracy problems with lighter spitzer type bullets. Shown here is a maximum load of 45.0 gr of IMR 4350 giving the 220 grain bullet 2127 fps in the 22 inch Krag barrel.

Perhaps no one has done more experimenting with the Krag case than the late P.O. Ackley. In his two volume series, "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders" Ackley, starting on page 197, describes extensive high pressure tests on various wildcat versions of the Krag.

You might be particularilly interested in Ackley's loading data for his 30-40 improved which he developed for the better single shot actions like the High Wall, Sharps Borchardt, or the P14 Enfield. Ackley says, "Due to the wide rim and relatively strong case, it handles high pressures well and loads equaling the standard 300 magnum have been used for a long time by owners of rifles chambered for the cartridge. Cases are made by fire forming factory loads in the improved chamber." For the 30-40 improved he shows loads that develop 2920 fps with the 180 grain bullet and 2603 fps with the 220 grain bullet.

This two volume series was published in 1962 and is now dated, but is still a valuable reference. It can usually be found on used book sources such as www.abe.com.

Ackley's improved 39-40 would be an easy re-chambering job for a competent gunsmith.