Folks, Thank you for your input. I learned much. I build 2, 30 inch drop tubes, one with an ID of .30 and one with an ID of .40. I found that my 45/70 cases would hold about 84 grains of elephant FF, when poured straight from the can with no drop, so that is what I dropped.
There is no APPRECIABLE difference between the two tubes. The rate of pour is infinatly more important. I could achieve a compression of .25 by pouring the powder over a time period of at least 6 seconds.
As a point of interest, I could not achieve .25 by holding the loaded case on a case vibrator in any of a number of different manners and times. Also, I could not better .25 by holding a dropped charge case against the vibrator.
When I can get some Swiss powder, I will try that.
Thank you for your help! I believe I will use the .40 ID tube.
Coyote Chris
My drop tube experiment results.
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Coyote Chris
- Posts: 320
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- Location: Spokane
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don marable
- Posts: 520
- Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:32 pm
- Location: Longview, TX
slow pour
Coyote Chris:
You are getting about a 12 percent reduction in stack height with a slow pour of six seconds. As stated in my reply on the other post, I get about a 12 percent reduction on my slow pour drops. I think it takes me 10 or more seconds to pour 105 grains of Goex Fg into a 45-110 case and get a .33 reducton in stack height.
Thanks for the testing.
Don
You are getting about a 12 percent reduction in stack height with a slow pour of six seconds. As stated in my reply on the other post, I get about a 12 percent reduction on my slow pour drops. I think it takes me 10 or more seconds to pour 105 grains of Goex Fg into a 45-110 case and get a .33 reducton in stack height.
Thanks for the testing.
Don
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Ray Newman
- Posts: 3817
- Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2002 1:22 pm
- Location: between No Where & No Place, WA
RE: “Vibrator Method”
Like me, you had unsuccessful results using a vibrator. I tried it on a Lyman case cleaner, which has a very strong vibrating action--to paraphrase a popular song, it really ‘shakes, rattles, & rolls.’
I wonder if some case tumblers have a less violent action? Would this effect how well the powder settles?
I also heard of Shooters utilizing an electric shaver to settle the powder. Seems to me that this would be a smoother vibration & would/does this work any better?
For those of you who do ‘vibrate’, can you speak to the specifics of how you do it?
Like me, you had unsuccessful results using a vibrator. I tried it on a Lyman case cleaner, which has a very strong vibrating action--to paraphrase a popular song, it really ‘shakes, rattles, & rolls.’
I wonder if some case tumblers have a less violent action? Would this effect how well the powder settles?
I also heard of Shooters utilizing an electric shaver to settle the powder. Seems to me that this would be a smoother vibration & would/does this work any better?
For those of you who do ‘vibrate’, can you speak to the specifics of how you do it?
Grand PooBah
WA ST F. E. S.
In real life may you be the bad ass that you claim to be on social media....
WA ST F. E. S.
In real life may you be the bad ass that you claim to be on social media....
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don marable
- Posts: 520
- Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:32 pm
- Location: Longview, TX
vibrators
Hey Ray:
Don't mess up our forum with a question about vibrators. I suspect we have some sicko's anyway. Couldn't resist.
Good morning,
Don
Don't mess up our forum with a question about vibrators. I suspect we have some sicko's anyway. Couldn't resist.
Good morning,
Don
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Matthew_Q
- Posts: 235
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- Location: Austin, TX
- Contact:
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buffalocannon
- Posts: 1584
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:03 pm
Dear Coyote Chris
Back when I first became involved in this BPCR thing, I experimented a great deal with drop tube length, time of drop, lube formulas, bullet lead chemistry etc. Perhaps I have run out of that earlier energy to experiment, but I still love my Shiloh and black powder. My most accurate rounds came about when I used a 36-inch tube and dropped powder a full 60 seconds. Now it sounds like this would take forever, but if you figure how many rounds you actually use in a match, it ain't so bad. The bad thing was that the long tube had me getting up and down to reach, pour, catch etc. You've done it, I'm sure. I now use just a 30-incher for convenience and just dump the powder in the top. The load I use allows the powder to fall to within about a sixteenth of an inch from the top of the case. I then just compress more than I used to - I use about a third of an inch. I wonder if anyone has ever proven scientifically which offers better accuracy - the longer drop or the compression? I don't believe the buffalo hunters used a drop tube in the field, did they? But I believe the compression thing has been around for a long time? I even tried the vibrator thing for awhile and made a wooden outfit that would hold charged cases and attach to the top of one of my tumblers. I always kind of thought this whole vibrator thing may have been a joke one of the BPCR boys was playing on the rest of us - to see if we bit. I think some of us did, including me. I don't do it anymore. I believe in the drop tube thing and also the compression thing. I'm just not sure which is best and how much of each is best? Speaking of the long and short drop, research shows that if the drop is too long, when they take you to the corner and give you a ride on the big swing, your head will be pulled off. Too short a drop and your neck will not break, causing you to strangle. Remember this when you're loading those cases!
Back when I first became involved in this BPCR thing, I experimented a great deal with drop tube length, time of drop, lube formulas, bullet lead chemistry etc. Perhaps I have run out of that earlier energy to experiment, but I still love my Shiloh and black powder. My most accurate rounds came about when I used a 36-inch tube and dropped powder a full 60 seconds. Now it sounds like this would take forever, but if you figure how many rounds you actually use in a match, it ain't so bad. The bad thing was that the long tube had me getting up and down to reach, pour, catch etc. You've done it, I'm sure. I now use just a 30-incher for convenience and just dump the powder in the top. The load I use allows the powder to fall to within about a sixteenth of an inch from the top of the case. I then just compress more than I used to - I use about a third of an inch. I wonder if anyone has ever proven scientifically which offers better accuracy - the longer drop or the compression? I don't believe the buffalo hunters used a drop tube in the field, did they? But I believe the compression thing has been around for a long time? I even tried the vibrator thing for awhile and made a wooden outfit that would hold charged cases and attach to the top of one of my tumblers. I always kind of thought this whole vibrator thing may have been a joke one of the BPCR boys was playing on the rest of us - to see if we bit. I think some of us did, including me. I don't do it anymore. I believe in the drop tube thing and also the compression thing. I'm just not sure which is best and how much of each is best? Speaking of the long and short drop, research shows that if the drop is too long, when they take you to the corner and give you a ride on the big swing, your head will be pulled off. Too short a drop and your neck will not break, causing you to strangle. Remember this when you're loading those cases!
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Josh A.
- Posts: 922
- Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2003 7:30 pm
- Location: Texas, by God!
Drop tube
The issue is less how much settling you get, than it is consistent settling. You are going to prove zero by measuring settling. You need to be measuring SD's over a chronograph and accuracy on paper.
If you want to make yourself really crazy, load some using your best chicken bone rollin', incantation chanting, settling method; then load some by throwing the powder into the case, no settling, compress and seat the bullet. Go shoot both loads on paper.
J
If you want to make yourself really crazy, load some using your best chicken bone rollin', incantation chanting, settling method; then load some by throwing the powder into the case, no settling, compress and seat the bullet. Go shoot both loads on paper.
J
No words of mine can hope to convey to you the ringing joy and hope embodied in that spontaneous yell: “The Americans are coming; at last they are coming!”
I hadn’t the heart to disillusion them.
John "Pondoro" Taylor
Africa 1955
I hadn’t the heart to disillusion them.
John "Pondoro" Taylor
Africa 1955
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The Montanan
- Posts: 215
- Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2002 11:13 pm
- Location: Kalispell, Mt
Re: My drop tube experiment results.
Coyote Chris. just wondering... you 84 gr of Elephant FFg is that by weight or volume? I could understand a balance scaled or digital scale weight.Coyote Chris wrote:Folks, Thank you for your input. I learned much. I build 2, 30 inch drop tubes, one with an ID of .30 and one with an ID of .40. I found that my 45/70 cases would hold about 84 grains of elephant FF, when poured straight from the can with no drop, so that is what I dropped.
Thank you for your help! I believe I will use the .40 ID tube.
Coyote Chris
The Montanan
"I don't care what a person shoots, as long as he shoots it well"
"I don't care what a person shoots, as long as he shoots it well"
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Coyote Chris
- Posts: 320
- Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:29 pm
- Location: Spokane
40 years of reloading
I used a balance scale....once again, I enjoyed your input....I especially like this Buffalocannon person! We think alike....
After 40 years of smokeless reloading, this is all new and wonderful to me...and yes, the chronograph which I have will be put to good use when the sun returns....it is a challange to keep the the powder height the same after dropping from case to case and I bet my chrono and targets on my range will tell me what happens when things are changed.
I am wondering how Winchester loaded new rounds in 1886? Volume or weight and drop tube with how much compression?
Chris
After 40 years of smokeless reloading, this is all new and wonderful to me...and yes, the chronograph which I have will be put to good use when the sun returns....it is a challange to keep the the powder height the same after dropping from case to case and I bet my chrono and targets on my range will tell me what happens when things are changed.
I am wondering how Winchester loaded new rounds in 1886? Volume or weight and drop tube with how much compression?
Chris
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Minnesota AL
- Posts: 612
- Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:39 pm
- Location: St Paul MN
Settling
Chris,
Years ago I matched a 12" drop tube against a 36" tube. While the 36" tube settled the powder lower, the puny 12" tube gave about 80% of the same effect. I always figured a 24" tube would come mighty close to the 36" performance.
It doesn't bother me much lifting pours for my 36" tube, but if I had shoulder problems I wouldn't feel too disadvantaged if I switched to a 24" or even 12" tube. I suspect if a person extend the pour time on a 12" tube they would get near identical results.
I believe the settling is caused by the ability of individual grains to align next to each other and fill nooks and crannies. When you dump powder fast, it hits the case bottom like a log jam and there is no chance for the grains to bounce around and align.
Al
Years ago I matched a 12" drop tube against a 36" tube. While the 36" tube settled the powder lower, the puny 12" tube gave about 80% of the same effect. I always figured a 24" tube would come mighty close to the 36" performance.
It doesn't bother me much lifting pours for my 36" tube, but if I had shoulder problems I wouldn't feel too disadvantaged if I switched to a 24" or even 12" tube. I suspect if a person extend the pour time on a 12" tube they would get near identical results.
I believe the settling is caused by the ability of individual grains to align next to each other and fill nooks and crannies. When you dump powder fast, it hits the case bottom like a log jam and there is no chance for the grains to bounce around and align.
Al
Minnesota AL
Uriah SASS#53822
Uriah SASS#53822
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Coyote Chris
- Posts: 320
- Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:29 pm
- Location: Spokane
