Hello and a Question or 2

fatdog · Post by **fatdog** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 8:27 am

Ok I'll quit lurk'in and get on board!

I got one of these fine rifles on order it's a:

Mt. Roughrider
45/2.4
32" heavy oct
semi-fancy shotgun
aa finish
trad. steel buttplate
MVA # 113
MVA buffalo soule

Down to the last few months, I been shooting op's for the last couple of years in informal long range shoots. What a hoot! shot some great guns of all brands. Can see there is a bunch of great information here as well as a bunch of great and knowlegable people. Now how can ya beat that,? I ask. Also been getting tooled up for the new arrival and some of this stuff has great learning curves even with good information. Lately, I've been learning the casting thing and have been getting some fair results but I've still got a couple of questions I'm sure someone here will know.

1. How accurate is the saeco hardness tester?

For instance some home brew alloy I'm using tests @ 30:1 on this tester, but the casting weights generated are more like 20:1 so what is it really?

2. Is the relative hardness between say 30:1 or 20:1 or #2 very much?

For instance if you had some 30:1 and wanted to make it 20:1 (or visa versa) How much of approx. some thing else would you add?

3. Does tin change the hardness much or just improve the castability?

For instance if you added a pound of tin to 30 pounds of alloy that was testing say 40:1 would it make it test @ 30:1?

Just tring to get this stuff figured out or figure out if'n I even need to figure it out

Thanks, Rob

powderburner · Post by **powderburner** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:40 am

you need to get Paul Matthews books as they have all kinds of answers for you on alloying and conversions the formula is long but it works...Dean

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:12 am

What metal are you casting w/ as you didn't mention it.

I agree that you should read the matthews books as well as this link to casting:

http://www.longrangebpcr.com/8Phases.htm

I would also do a search of the archives for information about casting, alloys, etc.

Lee Stone · Post by **Lee Stone** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:52 am

I have a Saeco hardness tester and find it quite accurate. However, it will only work with small pieces of alloy. So I've gotten one of Jim Cornaggia's lead hardness testers. I actually got his multipurpose tester that does other things too, but he makes one that is primarily a lead hardness tester. You can test lead still in the ingot form if you wish.

http://www.castingstuff.com/

You can find it on Jim's website, Cabine Tree.

ffffgdave@yahoo.com · Post by **ffffgdave@yahoo.com** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:11 pm

20-1/30-1 has more to do with your loading teckniqe than shooting in my opinion.. that is if your case or powder compression is deforming your 30-1 bullet, one solution is to go to 20-1.. or you can get a powder compression die, and use an over sized case neck expander, etc etc.. so your going to need to get your feet wet and do it and then ask more questions, becouse alot of percieved problems maynot be a problem... .. becouse of the mentioned above,, 20-1 would probably be better for beginners.. im kinda for 25-1 becouse i figure it will be somewhere between 30-1 and 20-1 from batch to batch becouse i dont have a tester.. what matterrs is results not wheather its a certain alloy. it took me a loooooong time before i was able to shoot some nice short string groups, so be patient and take some breaks along the way if you need to, so your enjoying it as much as possible.. dave

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:28 pm

I have never utilized the SAECO hardness tester, so I can't comment on it.

I do have a hardness tester made & sold by Lead Bullet Technology --LBT--quick, accurate, & easy to use.

LBT has other casting related items. See below link.

http://www.leverguns.com/lbt/index.htm

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:57 pm

Re, Powder Compression die--Buffalo Arms sells plugs for the various manufacturer’s die sets for approx. US$17.00.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/

Or if you know someone who has a lathe, he/she could turn & thread one to fit the case expanding die from brass. I wonder if one could be turned from one of these ‘space-age’ plastics?

What I did was haunted the gun shows ‘grab bag boxes’ until I located a used . 45-2.1” (AKA .45-70) case expander die. I think it cost me US$5.00 or so. A friend then turned & threaded a brass plug to fit.

Or, if you have a drill press, purchase a bolt & cut off the head. Chuck it up & lower the quill to the desired am’t. of compression & set the quill depth stop.

I will take issue w/ ffffgdave about alloys. If I’m reading his post correctly, he says that you can seat the bullet & compress the powder all in one step & if the bullet is deformed, cast your bullets w/ a harder alloy.

I have never known a Shooter--myself included-- who seated the bullet & compressed the powder in one step who did not deform the nose of the bullet or ‘bump up’ the bullet to a larger dia. It is just too easy to apply too much ‘English’ to the ram & bingo, you ruined a round, or 2, or 5, or more. There have been threads on this board specific to this issue. As I said, been there; done that…..

I’ve also observed & experienced that certain rifles will only shoot well w/ particular alloy. This is especially important to LR & silhouette Shooters. W/ other alloys the accuracy is so-so or non existent. W/ the wrong alloy, you might also lead the bore. If you want ‘gilt edge accuracy’ from your rifle, It’s just one of those things that you need to experiment w/. If you want to plink, use whatever alloy: (a) doesn’t lead; (b) gives you the accuracy that you desire.

Kelley O. Roos · Post by **Kelley O. Roos** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:19 pm

Ray,

Wondered if anyone would catch that on compressing with a 30-1 bullet and if the bullet bumps up use 20-1. Well, 20-1 is pretty soft and will bump up to. To much neck tension will cause a bullet to be deformed in a seating operation to. Care should be used in any seating operation when it comes to lead bullets. Powder compression should be a separate operation, unless the powder is being compressed to a minumim, say less then .050.

Kelley O.

fatdog · Post by **fatdog** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:01 am

Thanks for the answers, yea I'll get the books. Ray, I'm using a home brew. What I did was go to the recycler and pick out some hunks of what appeared to be dead soft lead and some cable sheathing, (price was right) of coarse you never know for sure what is in the lead. Blended this all together and tested for hardness, it tested about 40:1 on the saeco scale. Added a pound of tin to 30 pounds of the mix and now it tests about 30:1 on the saeco scale. Next I went to casting with a mold that is known to cast a certain weight bullet with a certified 30:1 alloy. The bullets I cast were fairly good concerning quality, but even at a temp of around 740 they were coming in about 5 grains light. Not a big deal it just got me to thinking about alloy blends, and what I might do if I wanted them heavier. I do realize I might be getting into never never alloy land thinking about this stuff. I guess I'm really just pondering to pass the time whilst I'm waiting for the rifle.

On a more realistic note the gun will probably like what it likes and the alloy will only be one of many variables in the mix as mentioned.

Dave Shaw · Post by **Dave Shaw** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:57 pm

Mr Newman,

An interesting term you use for going over the top with things -

"apply too much English''

Do you know where that came from. One such term we use is 'too much welly' a welly being a wellington boot or rubber over shoe / boot. And I have no idea where it came from.

Regards

Dave

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:14 pm

Dave Shaw: greetings from the this side of the pond & from the other side of the US.

I have no idea the origin of the term "apply too much English''.

I heard it spoken when a pool shooter would hit the ball too hard & ruin the shot. I also heard as referring to putting just too muscle power to what your doing. My paternal grandfather (1875-1960) had a colourful vocabulary @ times & I probably heard it from him. Another one of his favourite expressions was “you dasnt do that.” Likewise, I have no idea of the origin of the term ‘dasnt‘, but when he said it, he meant business.

Another thing you will notice is the my utilization of the ‘u’ in certain spellings. I don’t know where that came from. I can not recall having a teacher who was from the UK.

As for “using too much welly”, you really made me think & took me back 40 plus years. I heard the term spoken by a high school buddy’s mother who was a war bride. A native of London, she would often say it when Paul was moping along or not doing things quick enough. Exasperated, she tell him “to get going or I’ll put a welly up your arse.” The only thing that I can think is that the Wellington was /is a leather boot style & there is an expression " put a boot up your...."

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:04 pm

Fatdog: if there’s one thing that I learned from casting bullets is that I stay away from range scrap lead, scrap yard lead, & wheel weights.

I know there are & have been Shooters who have successful cast & shot w/ these elements, but I can’t do it & several Shooters that I know haven’t been able too either.

I once melted up & drossed some wheel weights & cast some ingots. They were brittle! Bullets were even worse.

Smart move buying a lead hardness tester.

When you figure in the coast of the rifle, sights & BPCR reloading tools & components, quality lead & tin is relatively cheap in the overall scheme of things….

As for scarp yard lead, I’ve often heard it said that if you press your thumb nail on it & leave a mark that means it’s pure lead. Well, I have seen some guys do that & make marks on on lead that is much harder than so-called “pure lead”

How are you casting: ladle or bottom pour, electric or propane? It has been my experience & that of a good many Shooters who post here, that ‘match grade’ are cast via a ladle & the ladle spout has been drilled out several drill sizes larger to increase the rate of flow.

If you have an electric pot, your melt may be cooling down too much in between the thermostat on/off cycle. I cast a 545+ grain Jones Creedmoor bullet @ about 850 degrees. W/ big bullets you need a hot melt to properly fill out the mould. You’ll also need to get & keep the mould hot enough so as not to cool the melt too quickly & avoid internal voids in the bullet.

Once again, read this link:
http://www.longrangebpcr.com/8Phases.htm

Also read thru the archive d message this & the other boards on this site. ‘Lotsa’ info here.

I f you buy & read the Matthews books, read them ion the order published. Sometiems what he says works in an earlier book, doesn’t work as well through more testuing & he reports on it in a later or subsequent book.

I believe that Wolf Publishing sells them as a set:

http://www.riflemagazine.com//catalog/listing.cfm

Dave Shaw · Post by **Dave Shaw** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:11 pm

Ray

From the sounds of it, I would guess that many sayings from ‘old’ England and how they were said have come down the years, from the earliest settlers. If you ever get the chance to hear some of our more distinct accents you’ll know

(but not understand a word of what is being said) how the English language has changed over the centuries.
Getting a welly up your backside was not unheard in my mothers house, both as a saying and as a physical act

if you weren’t doing as you were told. The boot comes from Lord Wellington of Napoleonic fame.

As for spelling I was taught to spell by phonetics at my infants (5 to 7 years old) school. It was only at junior (8 to 12 years) school that the proper way to spell was taught and for someone who is dyslectic I can only say thanks for spell checking, how do they expect someone to use a dictionary when you don’t know how the word your looking for is started

Regards

Dave

Texas Shooter · Post by **Texas Shooter** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:25 am

Dave:

You statements:

"It was only at junior (8 to 12 years) school that the proper way to spell was taught and for someone who is dyslectic I can only say thanks for spell checking, how do they expect someone to use a dictionary when you don’t know how the word your looking for is started"

Really hit home.

Have you ever had the problem where even the spell checker can't figure out what you trying to spell? Me and my spell checker don't always, "Play well together". javascript:emoticon(':oops:')

Texas Shooter

rcasto · Post by **rcasto** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 10:57 am

** For instance if you added a pound of tin to 30 pounds of alloy that was ** testing say 40:1 would it make it test @ 30:1?

I haven't read all the posts so if this has been answered, my apologies.

I could be wrong, but I believe your alloy would be around 16.9 - 1.

30 lbs of 40-1 would mean you had 29.26829 lbs of lead.
(40 / 41 = .97560976 multiply this by 30)

29.26829 lbs of lead is .944138 of 31 lbs of alloy (after adding another pound of tin)

.944138 / (1 - .944138) or .944138 / .055862 = 16.9