Loading 45-70 Blackpowder Cartridges

Discussions of powders, bullets and loading information.

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Paul1874Sporter1
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Loading 45-70 Blackpowder Cartridges

Post by Paul1874Sporter1 »

My Shiloh Sharps 45-70 rifle will arrive this summer. And I’ve been in the process of putting together all my reloading material together. I’ve decided to go with IMR for my smokeless powder. I have already bought IMR 3031, 4198, and the 4064. I have bough my bullets yet. And I’m also going to load black powder loads later. I need some advice from the experts on the best bullets to buy. On what are the best Blackpowder to load with. I've been told that GOEX is very good. I’d really like to hear any and all the advice from those of you that have a Sharps 45-70 rifle. I reload my own ammo for my 30-06, 30-30, and my S&W 357 model 19 magnum as well as shot loads for my 12 gauge. I’m in no way an expert with loading for black powder. I have Hornady’s current Progressive loader and it’s great. I have the dies for the 45-70.I do not know what Blackpowder to load with. In addition, where can I find load data for Blackpowder? I’ve bought the Blackpowder powder measurer for my loader. I’ve bought Lyman’s latest reload book, and it is very good. I’ve done allot of research yet more information from those of you out that have the advice that books cannot give is what I need now. My Dad which will be 77 this June is eagerly giving me all the advice that he can, and well he’s like a little just as I am about the 45-70. I took him with me when I went to Big Timber to custom order it in person. So I’m sure that you can see that I’m really into my 45-70. I was told by Sharps that I should not load for the gun until I have it with me, so that I can check my first rounds loaded to make sure that they are sized correctly for the rifle chamber. I would like to hear from those that have a 45-70 on what you have learned that I should be aware of. I’m looking forward to hear from all of you. Ya, I know that this is very long, yet I do have allot of questions. I want to be ready and prepared before my rifle arrives.
Last edited by Paul1874Sporter1 on Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ray Newman
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Post by Ray Newman »

I always recommend that a new BPCR Shooter read the following on-line BPCR reloading primer, which has some loading data:

http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/Resources/Intr ... oading.pdf

Then I also suggest that you take the time & read the archives. I’ll wager that a great many of your questions have been previously asked & answered.

Here’s a link to one & only rdnck’s well-proven .45-2.1” load:

http://goexpowder.com/phpBB2/viewtopic. ... highlight=

If you are going to shoot BP, you’ll need a softer alloy bullet. I would look for either the 500n grn Gov’t style bullet for the Trapdoor or the Postell style bullet. Most of the bullets that I’ve seen or heard reported on are a hard cast bullet for White Powder (AKA smokeless/nitro). You will just need to remember to tell the bullet supplier what powder you are using so as to get the right alloy & lube.

IIRC, there was a thread w/in the last 6 months or so on store-bought bullets.

Speaking of White Powder, probably 90% of the Shooters on this board utilize BP, so you may not receive too many responses concerning that propellant.

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Relaoding BPCR for 45-70

Post by Paul1874Sporter1 »

Thanks Ray for all the info. Anything that I can get now will help in the long run. I do wish to be prepared and as well educated on loading for BP as I can be. I hunt up in the local foothills above Calveras Reservoir, and we have set up a rilfe range for targets at 25 yards, 50 yards and for 100 yards. I hope one day i can set up steel targets up for the BPCR. I emailed GOEX tonight requesting what they have that they would recomend that I use, and for any load data that they might have that they could send. When it comes to reloading for BPCR, my Dad and I are learning this together, and he's going to be 77...so were spending allot of time together. He's my mentor when it comes to hunting and to relaoding. So who better to go through this with then Dad. He's getting as much out of this as I am. I had better shut down for the night, thanks for the links and the advice. I have not been in the forum in a while now. I think I need to get back in touch with all of you, Paul.
Last edited by Paul1874Sporter1 on Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by EwingYoung »

Many years ago when I started and was a little afraid to start with blackpowder I found that 23g of 4759 and 405g Meister bullets was a lot of fun at least to 200yds. No wads, bullets seated about .020 off the rifling.
After I started shooting black powder I never used smokeless again except to try duplex. (have to try everything) I don't do that anymore either.

Swiss is likely the best black powder around but I doubt it is twice as good as GOEX at nearly twice the price. I shoot GOEX ffg. I use 67g to 80g depending on the bullet and other factors.

I use vegi wads or ldpe wads. My bullets run from 535g to 585g.

I enlarge flash holes to .96 or .100 inch and have best luck with Federal 215 primers.

I clean with rubbing alchohol followed by oil. There is nothing easier.

My advice is to not waste time with smokeless. Shooting black powder in these guns is much more fun and very satisfying. Hitting steel at 300 to 1000 yards has to be experienced to appreciate.
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Post by 8iowa »

Paul:

Lyman has two books that cover the 45-70 very well; (www.lymanproducts.com, www.midwayusa.com, and many other sources)

"48th Reloading Handbook" (for smokeless loads)
"Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual"

Both books also include cast bullet loading data. You will hear otherwise, but I strongly recommend staying within the loading data given for the trapdoor Springfield. Why take a chance with a nice, and expensive, sharps rifle.

The jacketed bullets available from major manufacturers only go up to 405 grains, and have the very necessary FP for use in lever rifle magazines. With your single shot sharps you can get much better down range ballistics by using lead bullets up to 550 grains. Unlike the lever action rifles, you are not limited by an overall length of 2.550 inches.

Lead bullets are now very available. Most however, are "hard cast" and have smokeless powder lubricant. They are designed for smokeless loads used in the Cowboy Action Shooting events. If You want to purchase lead bullets for black powder loads, look for a softer alloy such as 1 in 20 or 1 in 30 (tin vs lead). Also, they should be lubed with SPG, Lyman's Black Gold, or something similar. Purchasing your lead bullets is a good way to get started, but it won't be long before you are casting your own.
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Post by KHR »

Paul
If you want to purchase bullets, try the swaged Buff arms bullets, they are very accurate.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,100.html
Then eventually think about getting a Paul Jones mould.
http://www.pauljonesmoulds.com/45_caliber.htm
:-)
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Post by Paul1874Sporter1 »

Ewing, Biowa, and Keith,

Ewing, I’ll have to check out the Meister site and may try them out for the 45-70. I would need to find some load data on them before I went with them. You mentioned Swiss…I’m not familiar with them. What is the complete name or link for them? I’ve allot of good things about GOEX for BPCR. I don’t know much at this time about the reloading process for Bp so please be patient with some of my questions. What are Vegi Wads and Ldpe? Are these your own homemade cast bullets when you mentioned the 535g and the 585g bullets? I’ve just recently started reading something about enlarging the flash holes, so this is also very new to me…and I might not really understand it yet, give me time and I will. At this time, I have no concept of cleaning the barrel after so many shots. I need to get out to a range and see some competition with BP. I have found out that there is a Range that has SASS and BP competitions that’s abut a couple hours from where I live. I’m excited about the notion of shooting at some thing over 500 yards. I’ve shot over 350 yards at a dear and killed it with my 30-06. I think when I shot at it freehand and shooting up hill, that the shot was more BS then any thing else. The deer was just looking at me, and the bullet did all the work.

Biowa, I’m already ready the Lyman 48th Edition, and my dad has the other book. I have not had a chance to read the BP book by Lyman. I’ll do that after I finish the reloading one first. I looked at midway this morning, thanks… I have not been on there website in a very long time. I pretty much forgot about them, yes that really did happen. I’ll take a good look at both books on the cast loading. I just have not gotten to that part of the reading in Reloading book by Lyman. The Sharps is an expensive rifle and you’re correct on not taking chances. I spent allot of money in just buying the rifle. As you all know the best things in life are not cheap. I’ve been looking at the manufactured bullets that are out there and yes I cannot find anyone with more then a 405g jacketed bullet. Mostly 300g, 350g, and 400g Jacketed bullets. I’ve been doing my research on the bullets just as I have with my powders. Am I correct in understanding you that since my Sharps is Breech loaded that I can have a longer OAL then a lever action has? What are the top manufactures of lead bullets that are out there. I was not sure about going over 400g bullets at this time. What is the benefit of loading a bullet that is 400+ grains?

Keith, thanks for the 2 links, ill check them out.

I’m curious to find out from everyone on what fps are they loading at. I’ve heard not to exceed much more then 1800 fps. I’d like to know from those of you that are shooting BPCR what you’re shooting as in the Caliber, your loads such as powder and bullets. Also I’m interest in haring if you hunt with them, if you shoot competition, and about those that shoot Silhouettes. Shooting Silhouettes looks and sounds like fun and a real challenge to get good at.
Last edited by Paul1874Sporter1 on Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by El Paso Pete »

Paul, There maybe a closer SASS range. Here is a list of 'em. http://www.sassnet.com/AClubs-CA-001A.php
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Post by Paul1874Sporter1 »

El Paso Pete,

Thanks for the links on SASS. I've been on that sight many times, yet I did not find out intil just now that Manteca and Stocton have ranges that have SASS. Maybe they might have the Silhouette Competition as well, thanks. I already knew that Modesto has both.
Last edited by Paul1874Sporter1 on Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by El Paso Pete »

Paul,

There's a 1000 yard range in Cupertino. That ain't to far from you.
Check the NRA's range list here http://www.nrahq.org/shootingrange/find ... p?State=CA
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Post by Paul1874Sporter1 »

El Paso Pete,

Thanks for the info on Cupertino. I live on the Eastern part of the bay. Cupertino would be an easier drive and closer then the others. They are over the foothills in the valley. You all are just great. I hope one day I can meet some of you that live out in California and not far from the San Francisco Bay. Gotta go now, I'll check out the Cupertino range.
Last edited by Paul1874Sporter1 on Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by EwingYoung »

Paul
Swiss brand black powder is available at mainepowderhouse.com and powderinc.com and others. Swiss may get higher velocities.
With blackpowder most but not all use a wad between the powder and the bullet. Some use cardboard tablet backing or milk carton material or other things. Vegetable fiber gasket material is very popular. LDPE is low density POLYETHYLENE and is popular if not biodegradable. Pre made wads of both are available for around $20 per thousand from a number of places such as Walter's Wads or Buffalo Arms. I make my own with a Cornell Wad Cutter.
I cast my own bullets. Early on I purchased bullets from Montana Precision Swaging and was happy with them. I didn't shoot in matches at that time. sagebrushproducts.com , http://www.black-powder.com/ and other sell cast bullets including match grade.
In the Wolf's book on Reloading for the Trapdoor Springfield they talk about the difference in the area of the original flash holes compared to modern flash holes. It sounded good and works for me. This is not supposed to be good for smokeless.
Everyone is searching for a way to shoot match quality with out wiping or blow tubing between shots. I have seen it done but it has limitations even for those I have seen make it work sometimes.
Cleaning the rifle after a shooting session is a breeze.
Subscribe to The Black Powder Cartridge News at blackpowderspg.com . Check out bpcr.net and the technical articles. Don't expect a 45/70 to be a 45/90 or a 30/06. They can shoot to a thousand yards but it gets tougher after 800 or so. If you can get 1200 fps with a 500g bullet you are doing good. Heavier bullets seem to work better for mid to long range (Dan Theodore is having some success with lighter bullets). I never got less than 500g to work at all with blackpowder.
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Post by horsefly »

Good morning, Paul1874Sporter1;

I think you're doing what a lot of folks who read this stuff do. They start thinking that loading black is really involved and difficult. Many of the people writing here and in other places are CRANKS....NUTS. They revel in the detail and minutia. That's not all bad, either, but it gives newbies the impression that they have to start doing all that stuff just to shoot.

BULL!

Don't worry about primer pockets or drilling flash holes. On new brass, size it enough to make the mouth round and then chamfer it so there are no big burrs. Trim for length is good, but not necessary.

If you're using Goex 2F or Cartridge, put in 68 to 72 grains. Put a wad (cardboard or LDPE) and compress the charge enough that when you seat the bullet touching the wad, the cartridge will chamber. Don't compress the powder with the bullet.

Make sure that your case necks will accept the bullet. For starters, a little friction fit is probably good. Don't shave lead from the bullet. Be sure that the bullet is lubed with a black powder lube. I use SPG or Black Magic.

What I have described is basically all that you need to do. As you become more comfortable with the process, you will want to make all kinds of modifications to the process to suit yourself. That's good, but you don't need anything more than I've said here to get started.

Y'all be good.

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Post by Paul1874Sporter1 »

horsefly,

Thanks for the info. I've been getting allot of that and I do very much appreciate it. This is just all new and very different then teh stardard loads. It sounds sometime very complicated. Yet I'm sure once I get going doing BP I'll be fine. Everyone has been really great with passing on what they have learned. I took a big hit on putting together my reloading stuff frfom almost scratch for my 30-06, 30-30 and my 357 mag. And at this time I just cannot afford to put money into casting my own bullets. Just thought you and the rest should know that. Yet I also do understand the benefits of casting my own bullets, and later that might just happen. Thanks for the info again.
Last edited by Paul1874Sporter1 on Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by horsefly »

Good morning, again, Paul1874Sporter1;

I understand your thinking... no sweat. Just make sure that the bullets you buy are lubed with something intended for BP or buy them without lube and lube them yourself. It costs next to nothing to pan lube.

The problem with buying bullets is that a lot of folks brag about their "hard cast" bullets. Usually they have hard lube on them, too. "Hard cast" bullets with hard lube are a recipe for problems. Just make sure that you get bullets and lube intended for BP.

Other than the caveat about using bullets and lube intended for BP, I believe my remarks above apply even more to you because doing all this other "stuff" costs time, equipment and money in varying amounts of each. Let us know how you turn out.

This kind of loading is not any harder than loading the flavorless stuff unless you start listening to too many people and get overloaded. It is just different is some ways.

Y'all be good.

horsefly
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