Observations!

[RMulhern]

Folks hunting/using BPCR to hunt need to understand one basic thing about the cartridges/bullets that we use and this is the fact that regardless of the caliber.....unless one hits the spinal column or the brain of an animal...that the animal in most cases IS NOT....going to hit the dirt immediately! The animal will more than likely leave post haste....and a blood trail will most likely have to be followed. The animal may not run far.....but it will leave the immediate area! These bullets....especially those of 500 grs. or better are not high velocity....but they will give great penetration in most cases coming out the opposite side and looking for somewhere to go. Round nose lead bullets I don't think are the best to utilize on ANY GAME animal; rather bullets of 40-1 ratio with a flat meplat are IMO the way to go!

FWIW!!

[Leatherstocking]

Sharpsman,
I am always a bit confused by other's experiences with BPCR. My 45's in 405 gr.......both soft point semi-jacketed and cast, have had exactly the results I expected each and every time I have hit the animal in the heart and lung area. All deer size animals...mule deer and antelope have dropped where they stood. One 350lb blackie also died on the spot. One bull elk dropped on the spot even though it took more than one follow up to dispatch him. Only a bull which was not hit in the "vitals" remained on his feet, however the "throat" shot was never the less a "killing shot" due to the massive bleeding. I am not disagreeing with you, but one of the reasons I endorse big heavy slow moving bullets over smaller fast moving ones, is I have seen more the example you described with the hyper "30's", than I have with the big snail '45's, 50's and ..............for that matter even 58 cal. round balls. Having said that I'm also disturbed a bit by the above thread on hunting bears, as I am a strong believer in being armed and ready for any eventuality..................I carry as many rounds as I feel comfortable carrying "always at least 8 as that is what my cartridge box carries". Never the less on the two bears I have killed and assorted deer and antelope and one cow elk, all were one shot kills. Now granted I enter every hunt with a prayer that "the bullet will always meet it's intended mark, the animal will die where he stands or very quickly, and that it will never suffer because I was careless. Having taught hunter's ed for so many years, you hear many stories that make you want to cringe...................many you hope the public never hears. Our first and foremost responsibility I believe, is to take single effective killing shots, that will not cause undue suffering to the animal or waste the resource. I have passed up so many shots over the years which may have resulted in a kill, but I wasn't certain enough to risk it. I'm not the greatest shot in the world........by any stretch, but all you got to do once, is have that sick feeling in your gut when a bad shot has wounded an animal and it has run off, and after looking for it for several days, ......that's not a feeling I want to ever experience again. It's only by the grace of God that I "get" to hunt. I promised to be a good steward from the beginning. My sense of accomplishment or male ego is not the most important thing. As a result, I have had a measure of success, some trophies and some wonderful memories.

Your warning, never the less is well taken and should hopefully convince some to work harder at shot placement.....................and like a good boy-scout, at least be prepared. Laws are different in various places, and we have to do what ever we do within the bounds of those laws, however, I always carry a pistol when I ride the high country.......mostly prepared in case I have to shoot a horse or mule due to an accident. I might never need it, but the one time I did, it was much easier to pull a trigger to kill my favorite mount, than it would have been to cut his throat or bash his brains in.


Leatherstocking

[Tallperson]

I too have had just the opposite expiriences shooting big slow slugs at critters of various sizes and temperments. If your slug is exiting the animal your bullets may be too hard and are not expanding. My .54 cal round ball smokepole has anchored many many muley and whitetail deer, antelope, blackbear and one good Wyo. moose. The 45-120 has done the same minus the bear and moose. If you transfer the kinetic energy of these massive slugs to the animal it will go down and the shock effect is tremendous. Of course shot placement is essential. Hits too far back, even with a cannon will have you following blood , pieces and parts as they are scattered along. Just my expirience.
Tallperson

[RMulhern]

Leatherstocking

<<but one of the reasons I endorse big heavy slow moving bullets over smaller fast moving ones, is I have seen more the example you described with the hyper "30's", than I have with the big snail '45's, 50's >>

Ain't nothing wrong with disagreeing; all of our experiences ARE NOT the same! I too...endorse BIG/HEAVY BULLETS because I believe they do the job! But...they're a lot of new folks coming onto the hunting scene with our rifles and even though they're GREAT....any animal hit.....MAY NOT go down upon impact immediately....just because it's been hit with a BIG/HEAVY CAST BULLET! As for the 'hyper "30's"...I had a friend from Missouri whom is an excellent shooter bust an elk with a 300 Ultra Mag this past season from about 300 yds. upslope...and the bull just stood there like...."was that a horsefly"?? The hit was right in the knuckle of the shoulder and got BOTH LUNGS! The bull eventually fell...rolled downslope into scrub oak...and appeared 'done for'! As Dave climbed up....the bull got back on his feet....moved 40 yds. and was standing again when Dave busted him again; down for the count!! Some believe hydrostatic shock from high velocity bullets kill better than anything else but I've shot enough game using the 'manglehams' to know that it ain't necessarily so! Like you stated.....one could bust 'em with a 20MM....and if not hit in the right place.....they're gonna run!!

[Leatherstocking]

Sharpsman,
Wasn't trying to disagree, only speaking of my experience. I have a friend who had shot 27 mule deer in a row with a .270..all one shot kills. You are very right to express the concern and perhaps I should have cottoned on to your caution in the beginning. Like with muzzle loaders, many animals are either wounded or missed all together, not because smokepoles are not effective for killing game, but because, many take shots, at too great a distance. It is all about shot placement! My youngest son when he first started hunting blew the ball and socket completely clean out of the shoulder of a mule deer..............I picked them up off the ground. They were so clean there wasn't even any blood. The deer took off, leaving no blood trail what's so ever. Much to our great frustration...especially to James, we never found her. I sold the 30-30 he had been hunting with and bought him a 45-70! As you know, things don't always work out the way we expect in the field. We've done the best we can though, when we have done our pre-hunting target shooting, and go into the field with everything we need, to do an ethical one shot kill and follow up every shot. For me, knowing my handi-caps.......I do a lot of praying as well!

Be Blessed! Leatherstocking

[Trigger Dr]

I have hunted since age10, Started with my father in 1950, and have taken every big game specie on the north American continent EXCEPT Grizzly (sp) and Moose. I have successfully made one shot kills with 45/70, .338, 30-30, 7x57, 30-06, .257 Roberts, .357 (both rifle and pistol) and yes even the lowly .22 long rifle.
These one shot kills were on deer, and were for the most part, a rare occurance with the smaller bullets. My point is not the ballistic superiority of any type of projectile, but more importantly ...BULLET PLACEMENT.
Look at the accomplishments of Karamojo Bell in his African hunting using the 7x57, a caliber noted for its' light recoil and superb accuracy. Elephants and the truly tennacious Water Buffalo both fell to this caliber.
Bullet placement is the key, not mine is bigger and better than yours.
Jim

[RichBratlee]

Amen Doc--I knew of several "old timers" Back home that used a .257 Roberts or 7x57 on all their hunts --- and from them I learned that very same thing--[b][u]SHOT PLACEMENT[/u][/b]--like what was said above--ya can hit 'em with with a 20 mike mike and not put 'em down..