--drilling bullet nose for hunting?

[anotherbob]

Has anyone tried taking an accurate shooting soft alloy or pure lead cast bullit and drilling out the nose say about 1/8 inch dia., 1/4 inch deep for faster expansion on game? Two points of interest, did the accuracy change much from your usual "undrilled" bullet? And if you got a chance to take a deer or elk in the boiler room, how did it perform/ expand --- at what range? Thinking of trying hollow pointing with the case trimmer rig, should be able to get it aligned fairly accurate. Thanks in advance for replies. Still contemplating what molds to buy for rifle on order. Bob

[ffffgdave@yahoo.com]

i looked at this post becouse i have a drilling and did just that.. i went round and round last summer doing just what you said and have some comments that may or may not suit you.. pure lead: wont sustain any high pressure levels, works fine in colt .45 but some where over 1000 feet per second wont hold but will strip on lands.. remember when bullet starts to turn at the jump its only hitting a very small part of the bullet. leading causes poor succesive shots.. my first fix was paper patch , still same problem, would strip, but i wanted 1500 fps,, 45-70 would be slower and you may have better luck.. hollow point: you can get hollow point attachments for bullet trimmers, mine is forester, came highly recomended.. but again without velocity the fragmented bullet idea just doesnt seem to happen in a 200 grain bulllet at 1500 fps with lead hard enough to not strip.. if you do get superior expansion it will effect pennetration, not with .45 70 on deer tho. youll blow half the thing up... on elk shoulder you may risk not breaking the shoulder.. given the low velocity of the 45-70 id rely on accuracy of the shot rather than bullet expansion to do the job.. my son and i each shot a deer last fall at abut 100 yards.. mine had a hole thru the lungs both sides, and a blood dammaged spot on the back side about the size of a half a dollar bill.. the deer went about 75-100 yards layed down and i shot it in the head... good eating white tail.. my son shot a deer same day with his 6 mm, and nosler partitions.. thru the shoulder, it did not take a step, both shoulders was a mess, and when i cut it open it was like dumping out a milk shake... you can get hydrostatic shock form a fast lead bullet i suppose and hollow point, but what your getting into iv' found many years ago that usually the bullet/ gun your shooting may not be designed for high velocity and accuracy suffers greatly.. i used to shoot ruger number one in 45-70 at about 1900 fps with blue lube by veril smith, took a year to get it to stop leading but his lube did the job.. groups were never b etter than about 4 inches at 100 yards.. gun was hard to hold onto, especially in the field and years later i wonder if the bullet would not stabilize.. my experience is by the time you get all this figgured out with your bullet, on your gun, youl end up shooting a 500- 550 grain bullet, moderatly hard, at about 1150- 1200 feet per second in a sharps in about a one to 1 1/2 inch group at 100 yards and not haveing any trouble killing what you hit properly.. dave.

[anotherbob]

Thanks Dave for reply with comments --- maybe I'll still give it a try on deer this fall. I will be paper patching, so I don't think I'll have an issue with soft lead skipping rifling. Just like it when a animal drops right in it's tracks. Bob.

[TJW]

A-bob;

You might consider trying soft nosed bullets. These are made by placing a pure lead bullet nose in a mold and pouring the base out of a harder alloy, like 20-1, on top of it (errr on bottom of it??). The soft nose will mushroom and if the going gets tough the hard shank will punch right through it and keep going to daylight. It delivers more shock and a lager hole then straight 20-1 bullets, and unlike the all lead bullets, they will work at higher velocity and will fully penetrate.

It is a system that has been promoted by LB(Lead Bullet Tech) and was reported, last year I think, by Dave Scoville in either Rifle or Handloader mag as a way to effectively get modern partion bullet performance out of cast bullets. LBT sells special molds to make the soft nose, but I understand that they are not absolutely necessary. You also can pour an all lead bullet and cut off the nose. I haven't done this yet myself, LBT says it can be done this way but its sometimes hard to get the nose to fit back into the mold. You only need a few for hunting, so it may be worth some fussing to do. Good luck. TJW

[pete]

The pure lead 45-70 load I used for hunting chronographed at 1344 fps and didn't strip and shot good with 2 1/4 in. at 100yds. using the buckhorn sight. Lyman 457193 420 gr. bullet. With 71 gr. of Swiss 2f.
anotherbob; I wouldn't waste the time. A bullet similar to the one above cast from pure lead will work fine.

[rdnck]

I'm with pete on the bullet question. A 457193 at 30-1 pushed by 70 grains of Goex 2f shoots all the way through elk, no problem. It also leaves a big hole coming out. A 457125 Lyman Govt. bullet at 30-1 shoots through anything in North America. I have used the Lyman Postell 457132 at 30-1 on deer and hogs and have gotten good performance from it as well.

Velocity is an important part of the expansion equation. I shot a buffalo with a round nosed paper patched bullet at 30-1 out of my 45-110 last fall. The bullet passed completely through, taking out the heart and leaving clear evidence that it had mushroomed. Based on this, I plan to shoot the roundnosed Govt bullet at 30-1 in the 45-110 as my hunting bullet in the future.

A hollow pointed bullet gives violent expansion, and on larger, tougher animals will definitely cut down on penetration. Been there, done that, and have had much better results from the 30-1 bullet. This soft nose, hard base sounds good, but have you ever made one and looked at it?
Shoot straight, rdnck.

[omgb]

Here's my $.02 FWIW. I use a 520 grn bullet in 45 cal. driven at 1300 fps. The nose is one of LBT's LFN designs, ie. large flat nose. In his book, "Jacked Performance with Cast Bullets" Veral Smith outlines the research he has conducted on the relative killing power of various cast bullets. The LFN design is the result. I've used it on deer and have spoke with others who have done likewise. Even at low velocities such as 1300 fps, and cast from WW, it is deadly without the need for expansion. The design is also very accurate. you can order one from Veral in either PB or GC design in a wide varity of weights for about $129.00 for a two cavity design. All of veral's moulds use RCBS handles and they cast bullets like you would not believe...they just fall out of the mould when opened. If you send me an address I can send you a couple unsized for you to try.

R J Talley

[Omak Cowboy]

Back in the late 60s I was shooting a .58 Zouve repro when I and another idiot got the idea of puttting a .22 LR, with the nose cut off, placed backwards into a drill hole of the bullet.

Now this was a couple of light years before we got into MOA shooting so it was just whatever was in front of our muzzle. We didn't have a chrono so I've no idea what our MZ was nor do I have any idea what our ballistics were. It was fun, though, as this thing hit like a 6X6 going through a tub of butter.

Thinking back it wasn't the most ignorant thing I ever did, but it does rank up there.

And God let me live through it. Amazing.
Omak

[JMLange]

Omak,
That was not such a dumb idea. Isn't that exactly what Sharps did with their "express" bullets and 22 blanks that they sold to fit in the nose of the hollow point bullets?

John

[anotherbob]

Thanks rdnck and all the guys for all the good input. My only similar experience I've had using cast and swage lead projectiles is some muzzleloader deer taken with .54 and .58. Last year took a nice Manitoba whitetail buck with the .58 using a stout load 460 grain pure lead round nose, muzzle vel. about 1450 ft/sec. Shot taken about maybe 60 yards, broadside through both lungs from treestand, deer bolted and ran about 80 to 100 yards, --- stone dead. I was really surprised he went that far, deer had been just walking along slowly, didn't know what hit him. I usually go for my prefered side lung shot if possible, very little meat lost yet of course deadly. I just feel that a lot of the energy is just exiting out the other side being wasted. So I'm still thinking that at least some small hollow pointing will help speed up the expansion, maybe less drilling than I originally suggested in my first post above. I guess the trick is to find a good balance of expansion vs penetration. And for elk or moose or buff. -- adjust to a little less drilling for more penetration. Anybody have any suggestions for a medium to test in, equivalent to ballistic gell? Good excuse to fire off more rounds once I get my rifle --- ---just getting to know her!

[Trigger Dr]

Two years ago, I shot a nice Mule Deer in Montana with 45/70 using 330Gr Gould hollow point cast 20:1. 68 gr ffg. The shot was takeen at 60 yds, and the bullet EXPLODED on impact. The deer was facing straight on to me and I hit it right where the neck meets the body. Penetration was about 4" and tissue damage was extreme. It was a one shot kill that destroyed a lot of meat. Would I use this load on deer or any other game again? not only no, but HELL NO.

Last November I shot a yearling buffalo using 530 gr paper patch cast 30: in a 45/70 68 gr ffg. For those of you who have seen the video, you know the animal dropped in it's tracks,at 87 yds. A final shot to the head for finishing. This will be my hunting load from now on.

A good medium for testing penetration and expansion is firmly packed and COMPLETELY SOAKED WET NEWSPAPER in a cardboard box or plastic recycling bin at least 24" long. You might even place a shoulder bone in the first 3-5" of paper. This will give you a very accurate idea of what to expect.
Jim

[rdnck]

anotherbob--Read TriggerDr's last post again. His experience with the 340 grain Gould hollow point mirrors mine almost exactly. Forget the hollow point with these rifles and these bullets.

Look at TriggerDr's experience with a 30-1 paper patched bullet. Years of shooting and hunting with these rifles has brought me to the same conclusion as TriggerDr--namely that the best blend of penetration AND expansion comes from a bullet at 30-1. It is very hard to equal a 457193 420 grain flatnosed bullet, or a 30-1 roundnosed 500 or so grain bullet on game. You WILL NOT get reliable, repeatable penetration or CONSISTENT PERFORMANCE with either a hollow point or a split nosed bullet whether it is hard or soft on a big game animal. Quit trying to re invent the wheel and shoot straight, rdnck.

[Clarence]

The experiences with the Gould bullet are also consistent with what Mike Venturino has reported-okay for small deer, but he also prefers something like the 400 grain flatnose design, if I remember correctly.

It's not that hard to cut a flat on the front of the Government roundnose or other 500+ grain design and get the same effect as the LBT LFN. A friend has done that, found it shoots to the same impact as the unmodified bullet, and has considerably more immediate shocking power on impact.

An Ohio shooter I know took a fairly sharp .45 design to Africa and found it lacking on shocking power on kudu, so I think I would either buy a special mould or create a flat on a roundnose design to increase the odds of not having a long tracking job.

Clarence

[rdnck]

anotherbob--Read TriggerDr's last post again. His experience with the 340 grain Gould hollow point mirrors mine almost exactly. Forget the hollow point with these rifles and these bullets.

Look at TriggerDr's experience with a 30-1 paper patched bullet. Years of shooting and hunting with these rifles has brought me to the same conclusion as TriggerDr--namely that the best blend of penetration AND expansion comes from a bullet at 30-1. It is very hard to equal a 457193 420 grain flatnosed bullet, or a 30-1 roundnosed 500 or so grain bullet on game. You WILL NOT get reliable, repeatable penetration or CONSISTENT PERFORMANCE with either a hollow point or a split nosed bullet whether it is hard or soft on a big game animal. Quit trying to re invent the wheel and shoot straight, rdnck.

[anotherbob]

Can't argue with all the years and animals you guys have tried shooting cast whatever over BP so it's a paper patch flat point I'll order with approx 45% meplate --- as best as I can tell from my Lyman manual pic of the 457193--- that I'll try cast in soft lead. Is there much difference in so called pure lead --- scrap yard roof flashing trimmings that easily scratch with fingernail --- and a mix of 30:1? Admittedly my alloy experience has been with only two mixes --- so called pure lead and the other wheel weights. Or should I track down some tin? I will stay with the focus on paper patching, and just plain like the looks and nostagia attached to that wrapped projectile. Lucked into 400 lbs of roof flashing trimmings at .40 cents a lb., seems quite soft. Once again thanks to all for your patience and the comments. Bob.