Shot placement with alloy slugs?

[bobw]

Hunting with barrel sights or even a tang site presents new challenges, but using 20/1 alloy bullets really makes me wonder about the best shot placement for a clean kill. Tonight just before sundown I had a nice buck partially visible for a while. Well I could see his horns fine, but the whole shoulder and lung area was covered by a pine tree trunk. This left the whole abdominal area and the complete hindquarters exposed for a shot opportunity. No I didn't shoot, I'm mentally preprogramned for a rib cage shot, or quartering (either way), and head on. Well I never got any of those and the opportunity disappeared. As Iwas driving home I realized that I need to rethink shot placement with bullets that don't expand like jacketed hi-power slugs I'm used to. I've allways avoided placement that would result in the near shoulder getting broke first, I try if I'm going to break a shoulder to break the far shoulder after getting thru the vitals. What I want to hear from you guys that been getting them with alloy bullets and black is where you try to place your shots? It occurred to me that busting that buck thru the hips with a 408 gr Hoch would sure have immobilized him long enuf for advance and finisher. But where I come from that wouldn't even get considered and it took 2 beers while writing this to even think about it. So opinions solicted and glad to hear them all. bobw

[Scott Tschirhart]

I have been using cast bullets exclusively for the last 6 years, mostly a Marlin .45-70 and a .500 Linebaugh.

I like to shoot right through the shoulders when I can. There is not much in the shoulders of a deer anyway and with these velocities you can eat almost up to the hole, it is not like a high powered rifle.

These shots have been made with heavy LBT flat point styles and they are hard, being cast of wheelweights. I have yet to loose a deer or a hog.

Now, I am using black powder and a much softer lead bullet. We will see how it does.

[ironramrod]

BobW.,

I have shot quite a few deer with big lead bullets (400+gr.); both pure lead and alloys. I agree with Scott T. that you can generally take the shot you have (unless it is a gut shot), and turn out quite good. The ones shot through the shoulders generally either hit the ground like they were struck by lightning or they are so sick they can't move at all, and finally just fall over. I've shot 3 or 4 right through the hips just because that was the only shot I had, and I knew it would put them on the ground. All of them went down and couldn't get up. Of course, one needs to finish the job with a 2nd shot, but hips are a very good shot if that is the only shot you have. Additionally, as Scott correctly points out, these big lead bullets shot at black powder velocities generally don't do a lot of meat damage. Most of the time (but not always) one can cut right up to the bullet hole with little meat loss; maybe a half an ice cream bucket or so of damaged meat.

Further, I agree with Scott T. that the LBT flat nose designs are really serious bullets. I have several LBT moulds, and they cast beautiful bullets that shoot just as good as they look. With these bullets at black powder velocities one can just about take any shot you have and be assured of an exit wound and a blood trail that looks like it was applied with a paint sprayer.

Also, not to worry that you didn't take the shot you had. You did the right thing by choosing the side of caution/discretion, when you weren't sure what you were getting in to. There will be another chance; just keep shooting/hunting and your chance will show up.

Regards

[Leatherstocking]

Bobw,

With a 405 gn. cast .45 cal out of a 45-70, I aim for, just on the edge of the shoulder/abdominal, about 4" to 6" up from the bottom of the "chest
" . Just like if you were trying to shoot him with a broadhead. I have been successful 12 out 13 times with the Shiloh stock iron sights, at a heart/lung shot. Remember, aim small! 11 one shot kills, one bull required follow up shot.This bull had two holes through the heart but I did dig one "jacketed" bullet from just under the hide on opposite side. He was at 250 yards (quatering away)when I hit him with first two shots. That's when I went to cast bullets.

The 13th animal (bull elk) shot only allowed a neck shot which resulted in a longer than usual tracking session. I would suggest less alloy for greater expansion. It is always about shot placement........so shoot shoot shoot....and not just from a bench and learn your distances.

Good hunting! Doug
p.s. I agree with Ironramrod not to worry about that shot you didn't take! It's the one you do take, you shouldn't have, resulting in a wounded animal you never find............I once almost quit hunting over that one!

[pete]

Ok, I'll be upfront. Maybe somebody can learn me something here about this fascination with harder bullets for hunting. I'm open to advice and am willing to be educated.
I mean if soft lead or soft lead 40-1 or 50-1 alloys expand and work good with behind the shoulder shots which is where you should be trying to shoot why are guys trying to find out the special idiosyncracies of hunting with a harder alloy instead of just using what works? I see this stuff from magazine articles on down. I shoot matches with 20-1 and hunt with pure lead, simple as that.
Ok, learn me what I'm missing and why I should change. It will save me from having to have two pots and two kinds of metal.

[Dan O]

Here's my 2 cents worth. I think if your hunting Elk maybe you want to insure complete penetration then a harder alloy would be in order. Think along the lines of a nosler partition. If your hunting Deer or Antelope then pure lead or 40-1 would be a good choice. I think bullet shape and weight also should be considered. That in it's self could be a whole subject on it's own.
MLV has been around this for years and I'm sure he has his fav's that he takes when he is chasing around the hills. It would be good to hear his advise also.

[dakotasharps]

I agree with the possible benefit of harder alloy to get guarenteed full penetration in larger game animals. But I would stay away from wheelweights as the antimony in them makes them brittle and more likely to fracture if they strike a heavy bone.

In my opinion, stick with lead/tin mixes only.

[ironramrod]

Pete,

I'll take a stab at your question. Actually, if you have loads with 20:1 and pure lead that work really well for you at the distances you typically shoot, you likely don't have any reason to change what you're doing at all. At least not if it can't be shown that shooting precision will improve significantly with a change in alloy.

For background information on hard cast bullets on the "raw power" thread of this hunting forum there is a link to a website called Garrett Cartridges that gives a short overview of performance of hard cast lead bullets. A much more detailed synopsis can be found in a paper back entitled "Jacketed performance from cast bullets" by Mr. Veral Smith. This is a very good book that has a wealth of information. It can be obtained by contacting LBT at 208-267-3588 assuming they are still in business; the last I heard they may not still be in business. One additional reference that I'm aware of is a 2 part article in the Blackpowder hunting magazine about 7 or 8 years ago authored by Mr. Al Marion. That article dealt with muzzleloaders, but the ballistics of most muzzleloaders with big conical bullets is very similar to that of BPC rifles.

I will admit that most of the data I have seen is dealing with performance at hunting distances only (400m and less). As such, in most hunting scenarios only a few shots art typically fired compared to a 2 or 3 day black powder cartridge matches in typical mid-summer temperatures. I've seen almost no information at the long range distances. My guess is that there are some riflemen that are shooting these types of bullets in matches, but I don't have any pertinent data myself for distances beyond that typically encountered in hunting. Perhaps some of these riflemen will chime in with some good information on hard cast bullet performance at 500m and beyond.

Regards

[Brent]

Personally, I think you can hunt anything on the continent with pure lead and expect pass throughs evertime with a bullet of 450 gr and up. At least that has been my experience. I have never recovered a bullet in anything up to and including bull elk. I use almost exclusively pure lead.

Use soft alloy if you want for casting purposes, but pure lead will do the trick.

Brent

[nineteen76]

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bobw,

I shot this Elk in the Black Hills, north of Spearfish Canyon with a Shiloh Sporter #3, caliber 45/90 using a Lyman 457193 flatnose bullet cast 20:1.
The Bull was slightly quartered away at about 85 yards.
The shot took both lungs and broke the offside shoulder. He dropped in his tracks but got up again and stumbled another 30 yards.
He was "Reduced to Possesion" with a followup shot to the base of the neck.
I found the bullet just under the skin on the offside shoulder. Cast bullet weight was 410.5 grains. The recovered bullet (pictured along with the "Ivories") weighs 402.3 grains.
I wanted more expansion and have since changed my alloy to 40:01 and have never recovered another bullet.
Deer drop in their tracks when I do my part.
I hesitate to use "pure" lead grease groove bullets for fear of barrel leading.
My two cents,

Chris

[Scott Tschirhart]

That is one fine elk! And taken with that rifle makes it that much better.

I sure appreciate your sharing the photos of the bullet too. I'll bet 100 more grains of bullet would have made a complete punch through, regardless of alloy, but it is hard to argue that what you were using was not absolutely up to the job.

Funny thing is that I have been shooting wheelweights for years (mainly because they cost me nothing) and I had some leading with them. When I recently switched to a softer alloy (approx 30-1) I do not see any leading. I am thinking about using the softer alloys in my revolvers to see if it makes any difference.

Thanks again,

Scott

[Conan_568]

Nice elk, thanks for posting the pics.
I've got a 410 grain flat nose that lodged in my buffalo's shoulder before I put a 540 grain creedmoor through its heart.
The flat nose looks very similer to yours, they could be twins.
I think we need to use at least a 500 grain bullet for hunting with these rifles.
I'm going to stick with my 540 grain creedmoor for hunting as well as target shooting.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Leatherstocking]

Bobw

just one other point! I have seen a 562. round ball.....I think 280 gr.....though I could be way off....anyway I have seen it pass completely, length ways through elk and a bear! I don't shoot pure lead out of my Sharps, though I know it would work just fine! I shoot alloy because I target shoot so much and as you know leading can be a hassle....except of course when you're shooting patched round ball.

Good Hunting! Doug

[Brent]

Doug,
If you shoot a patched bullet - like the patched roundball - leading with pure lead is a nonissue :D



Brent

[Leatherstocking]

Brent,
of course you are correct!................I need an expert like you to get me there though!