Caliber Choice.. .45-70 vs. .40-65 ?

pfeist · Post by **pfeist** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:03 pm

I'm on my way to saving for a hefty down payment on a Shiloh Sharps... Probably a #1 Sporter, half octagon, mid range sight, semi-fancy wood... but I've got a few details left to decide... Like what caliber!

I had the chance to shoot a few rounds of .40-65 at a local black powder cartridge "fun match", and I've shot .45-70 before...
I found the .40-65 very pleasant to shoot, and the owner(s) of the rifles I shot were both very enthusiastic about the .40-65...

I don't cast bullets myself yet, but I'm budgeting that as part of the rifle's cost.

So I'm wondering what the more educated shooters think of the .40-65..

What I plan to DO with the rifle;
at least 80% of it's use is going to be 300 yards and under punching paper and ringing steel for entertainment.
That local "fun match" is going on next year as well, ranges to 500 yards on steel targets.
I'm not a hunter really, so I doubt I'd ever need to perforate a food-beastie.
As much as I might like to give it a whirl, there are no BPCR matches within reasonable driving distance (6-7 hours one way) of me.

I would kind of prefer to START with smokeless loads, and once I have a bit of experience making a decent bullet, then try black powder.

Any major "Gotcha's" with the .40-65, or should I fall back on the enormous history and huge volumes of data for the .45-70?

I appreciate any input (even if I may make decisions contrary to any rational advice...).

Paul F.

Ken Hartlein · Post by **Ken Hartlein** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:44 pm

Paul, I know you didn't ask about this calibre but I'm just wondering if you've ever considered the 40-70 sharps straight? It has a little more "punch" than the 40-65 but not as much as the 45-70. If you've ever read Mike Venturino's book "shooting the buffalo Rifles of the old west" you will see that it is one of his favorites. I have a 45-70 and just love it but my next one will probably be a 40-70ss just for hunting and playing. I think either of the calibres you have mentioned would make you happy.

Vbull · Post by **Vbull** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 4:46 pm

Guys,
Although I've not owned a 40-70, I know a couple guys that had them. They felt it was a bit "finikey" to get to shoot well due to the larger case and additional fouling. I'm currently putting together a 40-60 Maynard which is just a little bit (.220") shorter case. So I'll get to try it myself.
I do have a 40-65 in a Shiloh #1. It shoots extremely well with Swiss 2F. That being said, it shot only OK with Goex CTG and 2F. It is an easy cartridge to load, form and feed. Lead consumption is in the 400 / 420 gr per shot range, Powder is only 54 - 60 gr . per shot. Not too bad.
The 45-70 can be a bit more hungry in the lead department. Bullets range from the light 300 grainers up to the 550 gr for long range. The 40-65 is fine for use on targets out to 600 yards. And a bit further if your only looking for pinking at things way out there.
A standard loaded 45-70 (no duplex, no long throated chamber or exotic loads) works well on targets to 900 yds.
I'm enjoying shooting some of the smaller rifles just because they ar lighter on the shoulder and cheaper to feed. Like a .38-55 and 32-40 I've been shooting lately. The 45-90 I use for long range competition is not for everyday use. From your description and use, I'd go with the 40-65. Good luck with your choice. Frank M.

pfeist · Post by **pfeist** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:15 pm

Thanks gentlemen for your thoughts!

I'm not opposed to the 40-70... I just stumbled on 40-65 by way of my acquaintances at that match.

I have an EMF Sharps (currently back with them for repair of a factory defective chamber) in .45-70 that I'll start playing with.

Once I order that Shiloh, I want to have a real good idea of what cartridge I want to shoot

Swany · Post by **Swany** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:24 pm

Paul, I shoot a 45-70 in a # 3 sporter. The most I've ever shot mine at one setting is around 50 or 60 rounds and I've never had any problem with the recoil. I'm partial to the 45-70, but the 40-65 would also be a good chioce for a fine Shiloh.

Tasmanian Rebel · Post by **Tasmanian Rebel** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:06 pm

Paul, I own both a 40-65 and 45-70 and don't think you can go wrong with either choice. I'm partial toward the 45-70. If memory serves, however, I think most of the competitors at Raton this year were using 40-65's with 45-70's a close second. Sidra Bagwell won K. Wasserburger's 1000 yd match with a 40-65 so this caliber CAN reach out and touch if loaded with the right bullet and powder. One thing to consider with all of this is that your spotter can see the impact from a '45 easier than a '40 on some occaisions which in turn may add up to give you a better score. This seems to happen infrequently however. I have not personally witnessed it but have heard of several people with a hit on the ram which failed to knock him over with a 40 cal. Both calibers are easy to reload for and the 45-70 has the advantage of having factory ammo available. Good luck!
T. Rebel
Chairman
Terrapin Creek FES

Michael Johnson · Post by **Michael Johnson** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:26 pm

If you would prefer to start with smokeless you should get the 45-70. For the type of shooting you describe the 40-65 with blackpowder loads would be more than adequate. I have been loading 45-70 and 45-100 for two years now and can say that it takes attention to detail but that blackpowder loads are capable of impressive accuracy. I came in second to Sidra at Kenny's 1000 yard relay and shot next to her during the competition. Three things were apparent. 1) Sidra is a hell of a shot. It was a treat to watch her shoot offhand. 2) Bill Bagwell is one hell of a good spotter. 3) Her 40-65 with the heavy half octagon balances very well. I think that the heavy half in a 30 inch length makes for a good silhouette gun. - Mike

Rickd · Post by **Rickd** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 6:48 am

Pfeist. I've got a 3 month old Shiloh 40-65 #1 Sporter and for my shooting it's the perfect rifle. Out to 600 yards (longest I've shot so far) I used a borrowed one while mine was still being finished .. very accurate with proper ammo. At our local range people with scoped hunting rifles are amazed by how accurate the Shiloh is .. and I'm still working on load development. Smokeless .. no problem. For punching paper smokeless will group 1 inch or less at 100 yards (24 grains of 4198 and a PJ 420 Creedmore bullet). My black powder load is grouping 1 inch in height and 1.5 inches wide at this point. Wanted to test 3 modifications over the holiday but Hurricane Frances spoiled that. Very accurate caliber, Economical brass (reform 45-70), moderate powder consumption (54 grains of Swiss 1.5), moderate lead consumption 330- 420 grains, and very manageable recoil, combined with enough power at target to "ring your gong" or knock down silhouette targets at 500 meters, and to compete in mid range 600 yard matches ... can't see a reason to go to a 45-70 unless you want to simply feel more recoil. Until you're ready to cast you can buy lead cast bullets from Buffalo Arms or Classic Bullets, in addition to pre-formed brass. Which ever you choose .. Have fun. Good shootin!

pfeist · Post by **pfeist** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 7:26 pm

Rickd;

Many thanks for the info! I found the .40-65 very pleasant with the recoil too... .45-70 isn't above my tolerance, but .40-65 WAS more comfortable.

Can you tell me a bit more about the "PJ 420 Creedmore bullet"?
I assume that's a 420 grain bullet?
Where would one get the mold?

I already have Buffalo Arms bookmarked...Where would I get a hold of the makers of Classic Bullets?

Paul F.

Jim Watson · Post by **Jim Watson** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 9:56 pm

PJ = Paul Jones Precision Bullet Moulds
http://www.pauljonesmoulds.com/

Classic Bullets
http://www.classicbullets.com/

8iowa · Post by **8iowa** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:35 am

I also shoot the 40-70ss, and love it, but it would not be my recommendation for a first rifle, especially if you are not an experienced re-loader. The 40-70 and the 40-65 as well have never been standardized by the small Arms Institute (SAAMI). There will be some varation in chambers and bore size from one rifle to the next. If you want to go with a 40 caliber, get recommendations from the rifle manufacturer before you purchase dies, bullet molds, and brass.

The 45-70 on the other hand is standardized, virtually relieving you of the problems described above. I load 45-70 for my '86 Winchester and interstingly enough the 415 grain bullet that I cast is almost identical in weight to my 40 caliber bullets, and the powder charge is almost the same as well. I can't detect much difference in recoil.

My personal preference, since I'm a history nut, is to stay with the cartridges originally chambered by Sharps. This would rule out the 40-65.

Rich Siegel · Post by **Rich Siegel** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:28 pm

Paul,

I own a Shiloh #1 in 40/65 and a #3 in 45/70. While both are easy to get to shoot accurately, I find the 40/65 more enjoyable to shoot (less recoil) and easier to get to shoot both black and smokeless loads accurately. To form the 40/65 cases though, you must run the 45/70 cases through a full length resizer and then trim to proper length. You now, of course, buy 40/65 cases already made.

Rich