Shared experience

[ian45662]

This past season I have been transitioning from paper patch over to grease groove. Mostly for silhouette but maybe for long range also. At first I was getting lots of leading. I would get bad leading out of all my rifles. My 38 and 2 of my 45s would lead. The only one that wouldn’t lead is my cpa with its stainless steel barrel. After talking with some folks I think we may have found the cause of the problems. When I went over to grease I used the same thought process that I did when shooting paper. I got my wipers completely soaking wet. Wiping solution would come out of the end of the barrel while wiping. I was also using a pretty wet chaser patch. The leading was so bad that even the felts on the baco wipers would have streaks of lead on them. After talking to some friends about my woes and frustration I tried using just a single patch that was barley damp with the Prestone rv antifreeze and bingo. That seemed to fix it. I can also use the baco wipers but instead of getting the felts completely saturated I can just dip them in the wiping solution just to get them wet, not completely saturated but just wet. That also works good for me and reduces the leading significantly. Now I get just a couple small flakes on my first and sometimes my second cleaning patch. I shot my Shiloh in a 2 day 2 day Silhouette match a couple weekends ago and accuracy was good with no leading. That was with just 1 slightly damp wiping patch. This weekend I will be shooting grease groove for the first time in a long range match. I’ll be using my 16 twist Shiloh with the BACO money bullet that has 3 reduced bands. I’ll use the baco wipers that are just quickly dipped in M PRO-7. I’ll also probably use a chaser patch that is just slightly damp with the Prestone antifreeze.

[semtav]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE

[semtav]

Good info tho Ian !!

[mike herth]

Ian, you have had success in the past shooting PP but are now returning to GG. Why? Is it just the challenge of load development or do you feel one provides superior accuracy to the other? I appreciate your contributions to the forum.

I am focused on improving my mechanics of shooting rather than load development, having learned a lesson at Big Hill earlier this year. I could not hit the 800 yard target and then my son, who had never shot a black powder rifle before, put six in a row on the same target with same load, easy peasy. Thus my shift in focus. Lots of work to do while I admire the skill of those who have achieved it.

[gunlaker]

You are definitely correct Ian, there is a big difference in wiping for PP vs GG. I generally like to leave my bore not completely dry, but not enough moisture in it to form droplets. I have come to the conclusion that excess moisture leaks down into the grooves at the bottom of the barrel and when the lead hits those beads of moisture it strips off groove sized pieces of lead .

The first time I ran the turkeys I was using quite wet BACO wipers. Accuracy was good but I had to pull out long strings of lead after every relay!

I use water soluble oil & water to wipe with. For PP I use 10% oil and GG 30%. I think that leading is minimal when there is a very thin film of oil in the bore.

With GG I think it's also best to pre-treat the bore by wiping with a patch with a little bullet lube on it, or just wiping fluid, to help make that first shot more consistent too.

Chris.

[ian45662]

Both style of bullets have the ability to win matches. One rifle may prefer a diaper over a greaser but I don’t know if one is superior to the other as far as accuracy goes. I will say though that I am on track to shoot more master scores this year than I ever have. I may already have shot more master scores than I ever have and I have shot more pig in a row than I ever have. I shot one out of turn at the nationals but I am counting that as a pig hit (in my own mind) since I did actually hit the one I was aiming at. My switch stems from the fact that my wife has started shooting. Last year it was all I could do to keep up with loading. If I wanted to shoot diapers this year I would have to pick and choose what matches we could go to. We are shooting somewhere just about every single weekend. Either silhouette , target rifle, or skirmishes. Once I started loading her grease groove ammo I started to realize that I could lube and load her ammo in the same time it takes me just to apply the patches to my bullets. That’s not counting the extra brass prep I had to do when I shoot diapers vs greasers. Shooting greasers has allowed me to make twice the amount of ammo in less time. So with that being the case…. Not only can we make all the matches. We can also practice more. Last year I was doing good just to make enough ammo for a particular shoot. Now I have enough to actually practice. I have ammo loaded for a spare gun also which is a new feeling. Add to this that all I need are just damp patches and not a bunch of wipers that have to be washed in between relays, that means even less time prepping on the range. It has also afforded me more time on the firing line. I have plenty of time to watch conditions now or just wait. With diapers if there is a little bit of fouling in the breach I’ll have to have someone push that round out with a rod and wipe again. I don’t have to do that anymore. For those reasons I think greasers might be better but I’m not sure if they actually shoot any better. They don’t shoot any worse. Maybe a little better but certainly not worse.

[semtav]

Add to this that all I need are just damp patches and not a bunch of wipers that have to be washed in between relays, that means even less time prepping on the range. It has also afforded me more time on the firing line. I have plenty of time to watch conditions now or just wait.

Several of the grease groove shooters that have switched to using one damp patch, had to revert to using 3 damp patches at the match this weekend because of the hot dry weather. You may never have those conditions in your area, but it happens.

[ian45662]

You are definitely correct Ian, there is a big difference in wiping for PP vs GG. I generally like to leave my bore not completely dry, but not enough moisture in it to form droplets. I have come to the conclusion that excess moisture leaks down into the grooves at the bottom of the barrel and when the lead hits those beads of moisture it strips off groove sized pieces of lead .

The first time I ran the turkeys I was using quite wet BACO wipers. Accuracy was good but I had to pull out long strings of lead after every relay!

I use water soluble oil & water to wipe with. For PP I use 10% oil and GG 30%. I think that leading is minimal when there is a very thin film of oil in the bore.

With GG I think it's also best to pre-treat the bore by wiping with a patch with a little bullet lube on it, or just wiping fluid, to help make that first shot more consistent too.

Chris.

I do condition the bore with a wiping patch prior to my first shot. I’m with you. I was using WAY to much moisture.

Something else that I forgot to mention. Shooting greasers I can shoot one dirty if I need to. If for some reason I am getting short on time I can just throw one in and send it. When I am practicing on animals I will load my last shot dirty just to see where it goes. With my cpa and my Shiloh I can load one with no fouling control and still stay on the animal with a normal hold. With my highwall I will need to use a 12 o’clock hold with with a dirty shot. That is something I can’t to when shooting diapers.

[ian45662]

Add to this that all I need are just damp patches and not a bunch of wipers that have to be washed in between relays, that means even less time prepping on the range. It has also afforded me more time on the firing line. I have plenty of time to watch conditions now or just wait.

Several of the grease groove shooters that have switched to using one damp patch, had to revert to using 3 damp patches at the match this weekend because of the hot dry weather. You may never have those conditions in your area, but it happens.

It is usually pretty humid where we are. Now if I were going to shoot at the D.I. We might have to switch some things up. Baco wipers would probably be a must along with a chaser or 2 or 3 but there is more time for all that stuff in target rifle.

[desert deuce]

Ian, do you recall what I wrote when you first announced that you were switching to GG bullets?

[ian45662]

Ian, do you recall what I wrote when you first announced that you were switching to GG bullets?

You have said a few things to me. You will have to job my memory a little.

[desert deuce]

OK, so here is jobbing your memory.

When you announced you were transitioning to GG from PP I wrote that as long as you were shooting PP I was not worried about your scores.
BUT, once you discovered GG we would have to up our game and now I was worried about your scores increasing?

Or words to that effect.

Prophecy - Websters: to indicate beforehand

When and IF you get fouling control in hand you will have mastered the fundamental accuracy issues that plague most serious shooters.

All that is left is to sign up and shoot the Desert International and you will have arrived on the world stage. Simple as that.

[ian45662]

I do seem to remember you saying something along those lines.

[charlie young]

Ian, just for the heck of it, try blow tubing at your practice range. As long as you are in a relatively humid area you should be good up to at least 90 degrees, maybe more. You will see just how accurate these rifles are with a dirty but moist bore. I have one 16 twist rifle that if it gets hot enough that I need to patch, I will use another gun. But blow tubing the thing is scary accurate, I just haven't figured out a patching method that works. That includes BACO wipers and different patching methods and solutions.

[Woody]

As a former blow tuber, I found that even in the hot dry West, a blow tube was more than enough to shoot master scores in silhouette. However, when laying in the sun, at a target rifle match wiping was needed after the first distance because of the additional heat from the sun.

Ian, as you recall, last month at Friendship, the match winner both days, was a relatively new shooter, shooting a 45-70 greaser. He used a blow tube and shot dirty for the entire match. He did not clean between relays and almost cleaned the laydowns both days.

I have been wiping with the BACO wipers for the last two years and am satisfied that they are conducive to accurate shooting with greasers. Lately I have used a MPRO7 wiper followed by a NAPA Cutting Oil damp patch and a chamber swab. The swab seems to lessen the stretching of cases caused by a wet chamber.

At the end of the day, the amount of lead I find is negligible using either method.

Woody

PS: Look out. The doctor has cleared me to shoot this month at Friendship. I've loaded the 45-90 with open sights.