Greetings - I am trying to reach Montana Gunsmith John King. Does anybody have current contact information?
I have read about John in Mike Venturino's book, "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West' and even have a Swedish 'Roller' that was expertly re-worked by John.
Any information would be much appreciated! Thanks.
Contact information for John King, Montana Gunsmith
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JonMartin
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- Location: Red River Valley
Contact information for John King, Montana Gunsmith
Jon
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MLV
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- Location: Livingston, MT
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Ken Hartlein
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- Location: Floresville, TX
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Ken Hartlein
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- Location: Floresville, TX
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MLV
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Ken: Back in 2001 I paid $750 for an original RB Sporting Rifle action complete with single set trigger. Then I had John King build it into a beautiful custom rifle. However, it seems that finding an original Sporting Rifle action is about a once in a lifetime affair. As for military actions, they can be found much cheaper but require a lot of detail reworking to build into a true custom rifle. You might talk to John King. He might have a handle on where one can be found and for how much.
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JonMartin
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- Location: Red River Valley
Howdy, Ken - I have a Swedish Gustav RB that has been re-barreled by John King. It is in .40-70 BN and is a very fine shooter. The stock set has also been replaced with a Treebone stock set. Granted, the military action isn't the most refined assembly out there but considering my investment and the fact this rifle only uses John's version of the 'Rough 'n Ready' rear sight (this is an awesome sight!), I am nothing short of amazed with its performance and accuracy. Well pleased, I am.
As far as re-barreling costs - much depends on what brand of barrel you have your heart set on. A Badger re-barreling will likely go $500 plus whereas a Green Mountain can be had for considerably less. I have heard good things about all of them.
As far as re-barreling costs - much depends on what brand of barrel you have your heart set on. A Badger re-barreling will likely go $500 plus whereas a Green Mountain can be had for considerably less. I have heard good things about all of them.
Jon
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ssdave
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Ken,
The days of cheap rolling blocks are gone. You will be quite lucky to find a good military action, blackpowder of course, for $200. They usually bring about $275, and the smokeless #5 can bring $325 to $400 in good shape. Usually you can get a whole rifle for essentially the same cost. I've purchased about 20 RB rifles and actions this year, and the real bargain ones have been in the $200 range. I just picked up an original sporter rifle in good condition for $575, that was a gift at that price. Usually they bring about $850 and up. I haven't seen a sporter action sell in the last 5 years or so.
It takes at least $300 worth of machine time and hand work to convert a military action to sporter configuration. If the breechblock and hammer are scratched or pitted, it goes up from there. The machine time isn't as bad as the hand work, I'm just finishing the hammer and block on a conversion this week. They were pitted, and it definitely is not worth the time it takes!
Even at the prices they bring, the rolling blocks are at least $300 less than a high wall, and I never see original sharps actions sell, so they're out of the question. The rolling blocks are the only original game in town that I can afford.
dave
The days of cheap rolling blocks are gone. You will be quite lucky to find a good military action, blackpowder of course, for $200. They usually bring about $275, and the smokeless #5 can bring $325 to $400 in good shape. Usually you can get a whole rifle for essentially the same cost. I've purchased about 20 RB rifles and actions this year, and the real bargain ones have been in the $200 range. I just picked up an original sporter rifle in good condition for $575, that was a gift at that price. Usually they bring about $850 and up. I haven't seen a sporter action sell in the last 5 years or so.
It takes at least $300 worth of machine time and hand work to convert a military action to sporter configuration. If the breechblock and hammer are scratched or pitted, it goes up from there. The machine time isn't as bad as the hand work, I'm just finishing the hammer and block on a conversion this week. They were pitted, and it definitely is not worth the time it takes!
Even at the prices they bring, the rolling blocks are at least $300 less than a high wall, and I never see original sharps actions sell, so they're out of the question. The rolling blocks are the only original game in town that I can afford.
dave
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Ken Hartlein
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Thanks guys, that is the kind of info I'm looking for. I don't care if it's a military action as long as I can make a hunter out of it in 50-70. I'm on the trail of one in .43 spanish for $195 with a bad barrel, and another one (complete rifle) in .43 for $525 that is a good shooter. Thanks again. ssdave, do you do this work for others or just for yourself??
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Republic of Texas Shiloh Hunter
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ssdave
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Ken, glad the info helps. I don't do custom work, don't have the time to be reliable, and I refuse to work on big timber time. I do some work to sell as I find time, that doesn't put an obligation on me for time.
If you're interested in a .50 cal hunter, I can set you up with one. I personally use a rolling block chambered in .50-2.2 (.50 alaskan) for hunting. It weighs about 9 pounds and has a 26 inch barrel. I have an identical barreled action that I'm completing, built on a Swedish rolling block, that I will sell for $450. It's chambered in .50-110 winchester (.50-2.4). The reason for these two calibers is that Starline started making the brass and it's better brass than .50-70 available, and cheaper. For hunting purposes, the longer case is good as you can seat the bullet deep and keep the grease covered. I had Pacific Precision cut me a special reamer to match the Starline brass.
If you want to pursue your own action, I can sell a good quality new .50 cal barrel, in a hunter configuration delivered in the US for $75. It's a semi-finished tapered round blank that finishes to 26 inches. Gives you a few options that you might want to consider, if you are interested drop me a note at dplummer@accesswest.com.
Best of Luck,
dave
If you're interested in a .50 cal hunter, I can set you up with one. I personally use a rolling block chambered in .50-2.2 (.50 alaskan) for hunting. It weighs about 9 pounds and has a 26 inch barrel. I have an identical barreled action that I'm completing, built on a Swedish rolling block, that I will sell for $450. It's chambered in .50-110 winchester (.50-2.4). The reason for these two calibers is that Starline started making the brass and it's better brass than .50-70 available, and cheaper. For hunting purposes, the longer case is good as you can seat the bullet deep and keep the grease covered. I had Pacific Precision cut me a special reamer to match the Starline brass.
If you want to pursue your own action, I can sell a good quality new .50 cal barrel, in a hunter configuration delivered in the US for $75. It's a semi-finished tapered round blank that finishes to 26 inches. Gives you a few options that you might want to consider, if you are interested drop me a note at dplummer@accesswest.com.
Best of Luck,
dave
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Texas Shooter
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ssdave
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Texas Shooter,
There's not a huge correlation between the case length and the powder capacities, because there's a basic technical difference in the approach the Winchester and Sharps companies took to the loadings.
The .50 sharps cases were intended to push 450 plus grain slugs at moderate velocities. Winchester had a better idea (or so they thought) that they wanted to use as a selling point in their 1886 rifles: namely high velocity for flat shooting.
Their approach was to load light slugs of 300 grains or so in front of larger charges, to create an express load. Their selling point was that their big 86 rifle shot faster and flatter, held more shells, hit harder and generally was superior to those old fashioned buffalo rifles. They had three loadings for the .50-2.4 case: 100, 105, and 110 grains of black. The larger 450 grain bullet of the .50-100-450 required less powder to keep the cartridge length the same to feed in the '86.
Unfortunately, BP as a propellent was not up to the task that Winchester demanded, and the lighter bullet, heavier powder loads were less accurate, had shorter range, and fouled worse than the old loads, and were limited in velocity by the burn rate anyway. But the sales pitch sold a lot of rifles, and accuracy for killing buffalo took a back seat to putting a lot of lead out quick to stave off real or feared indian attackers in the Indian wars.
Of course, in a modern rifle, we load what bullets we want and put the twist of barrel we need to stabilize longer barrels, so the history and loading nomenclature becomes academic.
There are some real dimensional differences though. Sharps used a .50 case that was .565 at the base, with a rim of .665. Winchester used a .50 case that was .550 at the base with a rim of .610. I suspect that winchester wanted to make sure that sharps brass and loads weren't used in their rifles. That, and the 86 action used a smaller rim to feed better.
It's somewhat ironic how things go in circles. Winchester later necked down the .50-110 case to .35 caliber and sold it as the .348. It was chambered in the improved '86, called the 71. In the 1950's, wildcatters blew out the .348 case to .50 caliber to make the .50 alaskan, and rebarreled 71's to it. They wildcatted the .348 back to it's origin, and returned the rifle to it's ancestry!
I chose to use winchester cases because Starline makes excellent brass for a reasonable cost. They began by making .50 alaskan. They chose to make it off of essentially modern .348 case dimensions, which are slightly smaller yet than .50 winchester brass. When they began making .50-110, they kept the dimensions. I had a special .50-110 reamer ground to match the brass they were using, and bought a lifetime supply for myself.
Long winded explanation! Hope this helps.
Dave
There's not a huge correlation between the case length and the powder capacities, because there's a basic technical difference in the approach the Winchester and Sharps companies took to the loadings.
The .50 sharps cases were intended to push 450 plus grain slugs at moderate velocities. Winchester had a better idea (or so they thought) that they wanted to use as a selling point in their 1886 rifles: namely high velocity for flat shooting.
Their approach was to load light slugs of 300 grains or so in front of larger charges, to create an express load. Their selling point was that their big 86 rifle shot faster and flatter, held more shells, hit harder and generally was superior to those old fashioned buffalo rifles. They had three loadings for the .50-2.4 case: 100, 105, and 110 grains of black. The larger 450 grain bullet of the .50-100-450 required less powder to keep the cartridge length the same to feed in the '86.
Unfortunately, BP as a propellent was not up to the task that Winchester demanded, and the lighter bullet, heavier powder loads were less accurate, had shorter range, and fouled worse than the old loads, and were limited in velocity by the burn rate anyway. But the sales pitch sold a lot of rifles, and accuracy for killing buffalo took a back seat to putting a lot of lead out quick to stave off real or feared indian attackers in the Indian wars.
Of course, in a modern rifle, we load what bullets we want and put the twist of barrel we need to stabilize longer barrels, so the history and loading nomenclature becomes academic.
There are some real dimensional differences though. Sharps used a .50 case that was .565 at the base, with a rim of .665. Winchester used a .50 case that was .550 at the base with a rim of .610. I suspect that winchester wanted to make sure that sharps brass and loads weren't used in their rifles. That, and the 86 action used a smaller rim to feed better.
It's somewhat ironic how things go in circles. Winchester later necked down the .50-110 case to .35 caliber and sold it as the .348. It was chambered in the improved '86, called the 71. In the 1950's, wildcatters blew out the .348 case to .50 caliber to make the .50 alaskan, and rebarreled 71's to it. They wildcatted the .348 back to it's origin, and returned the rifle to it's ancestry!
I chose to use winchester cases because Starline makes excellent brass for a reasonable cost. They began by making .50 alaskan. They chose to make it off of essentially modern .348 case dimensions, which are slightly smaller yet than .50 winchester brass. When they began making .50-110, they kept the dimensions. I had a special .50-110 reamer ground to match the brass they were using, and bought a lifetime supply for myself.
Long winded explanation! Hope this helps.
Dave
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Muddy
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- Location: WI
I recently bought a 1874 rollingblock military complete with bent barrel, rotary extracter for $250. Bought a .45 Green Mountain barrel for $100, gusmithing will be about $250 including trigger work, not a set just work to lighten trigger pull and cutting front dovetail, extractor groove and chambering, found very nice claro stock blank on ebay for $35, will do my own stock work. I dont know if you can do it much cheaper than that.
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Texas Shooter
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