Way before BP even entered my radar, there was always the S&W vs. Ruger debate. Ruger makes fine revolvers with cast metal parts, while S&W makes their revolvers differently. Now I discover the same contrasting idealogies within the Sharps community. Since no Sharps are splitting or blowing up on a regular basis, this becomes just an academic discussion. What are your views beyond merely subjective opinion? Private responses may be most appropriate.
James M
castings vs. milled from stock
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James M
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:52 am
- Location: Pasadena, CA
castings vs. milled from stock
Received my Shiloh catalog 
waiting for my engraving order kit
Planning my Sharps order, lots of Photoshop'n
waiting for my engraving order kitPlanning my Sharps order, lots of Photoshop'n
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Omak Cowboy
- Posts: 726
- Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:35 pm
- Location: Renton, Washington
debate
There are lots of folks here who know more than I do.
I would think that the basis for problems would be some form of flaw in the metal, such as bubbles which jewelers call "porosity", or, and I don't have a name for the other kind of defect, what looks like metal foulded over metal. The image is kind of like a scone wherein the metal has not formed a molecular homogeneaous mass.
Still, no matter which we choose in each case doesn't the raw material originate as a liquid which is poured into an ingot and then either remelted, or pounded into it's end shape? Now if this is the case what we really are talking about is how the pour turns out with respect to how homogenous it is.
my two cents.
Omak
I would think that the basis for problems would be some form of flaw in the metal, such as bubbles which jewelers call "porosity", or, and I don't have a name for the other kind of defect, what looks like metal foulded over metal. The image is kind of like a scone wherein the metal has not formed a molecular homogeneaous mass.
Still, no matter which we choose in each case doesn't the raw material originate as a liquid which is poured into an ingot and then either remelted, or pounded into it's end shape? Now if this is the case what we really are talking about is how the pour turns out with respect to how homogenous it is.
my two cents.
Omak
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
RIFLE:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, shotgun buttplate, bone charcoal, 28 inch heavy octagon, semi fancy wood, pewter tip, MVA soule sights. 11 lbs, 10 1/2 ounces.
RIFLE:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, shotgun buttplate, bone charcoal, 28 inch heavy octagon, semi fancy wood, pewter tip, MVA soule sights. 11 lbs, 10 1/2 ounces.
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woodpuppy
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:20 am
- Location: Florida
This has been a common discussion in regards to forged USGI M1 and M14 receivers vs. the several commercial cast receivers on the market. Generally everyone wants the forged, but properly done the cast are excellent as well. Most of what makes or breaks a commercial cast M1/M14 receiver seems to be the level of finish machining the final product; the castings themselves are fine. Guess what? the forging has to be machined too. As to tensile strength etc. of the final product, I couldn't tell you, but case in point: cast Rugers are well known for strength.
Montana Roughrider .45-70
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deerhuntsheatmeup
- Posts: 2253
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 6:36 pm
- Location: Mississippi
,,,;
The difference in the Shiloh vs CSharps receivers is minimal. The Shiloh is investment cast with final cleaning up done to a perfect finish and fit. It is all done in house at Big Timber. The CSharps Co. uses machined receivers that are good quality but are hired out to be done by other machine shops. There is not a thing wrong with either guns heartbeat.
Now comes the real difference, Shiloh is a world class company and there service and customer support is 2nd to none. It seems all is great until something goes wrong, like in my case, then you will be glad you bought a Shiloh. I can't post anymore of this online, but if you will give me a call, I will help you make up your decision on which brand to buy.
David Barfield 601-502-3667
Now comes the real difference, Shiloh is a world class company and there service and customer support is 2nd to none. It seems all is great until something goes wrong, like in my case, then you will be glad you bought a Shiloh. I can't post anymore of this online, but if you will give me a call, I will help you make up your decision on which brand to buy.
David Barfield 601-502-3667
General Rustie
Oiling Director
FES Society
It's hard to have a bright light experience, when you are living in the light.
Oiling Director
FES Society
It's hard to have a bright light experience, when you are living in the light.
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Rickd
- Posts: 174
- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:18 pm
- Location: DeLand, Florida
James. It's not really 'contrasting ideologies' that is the basis for the difference in the way the two companies build their rifles. One company, Shiloh, builds their rifles 100% in house using very high quality investment casting to produce receivers which are then machined on CNC lathes so that every finished receiver is identical insofar as tolerances and finish. Shiloh offers every option that was offered when Christian Sharps was building rifles.
C Sharps is not a manufacturer .. but an assembler. They buy receivers from a machine shop I believe located in Texas, barrels from Badger (excellent barrels), and stocks from another company. They buy small production runs of machined receivers. That's the only viable way they can source the receivers. They don't have the volume to set up in-house manufacture of either investment cast or machined units. The components are assembled in Big Timber, and obviously they have some good gunsmiths doing the work ( I believe 3 gunsmiths). They are excellent rifles as well. If you want bone & charcoal color case .. C Sharps won't do it. "That's too much trouble" is what John (the owner) told me when I inquired.
The C Sharps receiver is machined .. but then you are machining a cast pig of steel. The Shiloh investment cast receiver is very strong. Kirk showed me a 45-110 that a buyer had managed to damage. He thought 5744 smokeless powder was a black powder substitute .. and loaded 45-110 cases with 100 grains of 5744 smokeless. The recommended charge of 5744 is something like 33 grains. On the third shot the barrel buldged and started to split. It did not come apart. The powder manfacturer said the pressure 'was off the charts', and was amazed that it took three shots to induce failure.
Shiloh donates rifles to BPCR matches, they are active shooters, and are dedicated to promoting the sport and working with shooter, mould makers, and others interested in and involved with the sport. Their rifles show a more complete or higher degree of finish..in my opinion. (also in the opinion of a friend of mine who owns both C sharps and Shilohs). I have a Shiloh #1 sporter in 40-65 and it is a work of art. Good Shootin!
C Sharps is not a manufacturer .. but an assembler. They buy receivers from a machine shop I believe located in Texas, barrels from Badger (excellent barrels), and stocks from another company. They buy small production runs of machined receivers. That's the only viable way they can source the receivers. They don't have the volume to set up in-house manufacture of either investment cast or machined units. The components are assembled in Big Timber, and obviously they have some good gunsmiths doing the work ( I believe 3 gunsmiths). They are excellent rifles as well. If you want bone & charcoal color case .. C Sharps won't do it. "That's too much trouble" is what John (the owner) told me when I inquired.
The C Sharps receiver is machined .. but then you are machining a cast pig of steel. The Shiloh investment cast receiver is very strong. Kirk showed me a 45-110 that a buyer had managed to damage. He thought 5744 smokeless powder was a black powder substitute .. and loaded 45-110 cases with 100 grains of 5744 smokeless. The recommended charge of 5744 is something like 33 grains. On the third shot the barrel buldged and started to split. It did not come apart. The powder manfacturer said the pressure 'was off the charts', and was amazed that it took three shots to induce failure.
Shiloh donates rifles to BPCR matches, they are active shooters, and are dedicated to promoting the sport and working with shooter, mould makers, and others interested in and involved with the sport. Their rifles show a more complete or higher degree of finish..in my opinion. (also in the opinion of a friend of mine who owns both C sharps and Shilohs). I have a Shiloh #1 sporter in 40-65 and it is a work of art. Good Shootin!
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Kenny Wasserburger
- Posts: 4748
- Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:53 pm
- Location: Gillette, Wyoming
What most folks are missing is this!
Dont really matter much what the rifle action is: casting or a billet thats been milled.
WHY? both are poured metal at one point even the mighty billet is.
The REAL Difference is the Heat Treatment they get afterwords.
2 other Sharps companys stess they make their actions from a solid billet. Both rate their actions at less then 50,000 cup. Both of these companys actions will come appart long before a Shiloh will. Shiloh has spent much time and money investing in blowing up actions to find out how to make them tougher and better then the other guys. Thats a fact.
Shiloh rates their 1874 action as the same strength as the Ruger #1. And has earned that rate. Think on this also Shiloh button rifles their barrels a 45 cal Shiloh barrel has been prof tested when it was button rifled.
These days at the local buffler matches with all these guys shooting their rifles with smokless loads I rather set next to the guy shooting a Shiloh then the other two brands.
I take the Shiloh any day thanks very much.
Kenny Wasserburger
Dont really matter much what the rifle action is: casting or a billet thats been milled.
WHY? both are poured metal at one point even the mighty billet is.
The REAL Difference is the Heat Treatment they get afterwords.
2 other Sharps companys stess they make their actions from a solid billet. Both rate their actions at less then 50,000 cup. Both of these companys actions will come appart long before a Shiloh will. Shiloh has spent much time and money investing in blowing up actions to find out how to make them tougher and better then the other guys. Thats a fact.
Shiloh rates their 1874 action as the same strength as the Ruger #1. And has earned that rate. Think on this also Shiloh button rifles their barrels a 45 cal Shiloh barrel has been prof tested when it was button rifled.
These days at the local buffler matches with all these guys shooting their rifles with smokless loads I rather set next to the guy shooting a Shiloh then the other two brands.
I take the Shiloh any day thanks very much.
Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
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woodpuppy
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:20 am
- Location: Florida
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NRAUSMC
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:48 am
- Location: Riverside, Southern California AND Reed Point, Montana
James M,
If you have any questions about the quality of the Shiloh product line, I would be glad to allow you to inspect my Quigley rifle.
I see that you live in Pasadena, and I live in Riverside. That is only about fifty miles away and I would be glad to let you examine the quality, if you desire.
Paul
If you have any questions about the quality of the Shiloh product line, I would be glad to allow you to inspect my Quigley rifle.
I see that you live in Pasadena, and I live in Riverside. That is only about fifty miles away and I would be glad to let you examine the quality, if you desire.
Paul
Shooting my Shiloh Sharps Quigley is a kick to shoot!
The .45-110 will get there when the others fall short.
Member-in-training
LaLa Land Chapter
FES
The .45-110 will get there when the others fall short.
Member-in-training
LaLa Land Chapter
FES
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horsefly
- Posts: 265
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:59 pm
- Location: West Texas
Good Morning, Board;
It is true that all steels were liquid and poured once, but that doesn't make them equal.
In investment casting, the steel is poured into the mould, freezes and is ready to work. Billet steel is poured and then worked (rolled) into the stock configuration. This rolling makes a grain structure in the stock that sort of resembles the grain in a board of wood. When the material is machined, the "grain" remains.
When material is forged correctly, the grain induced by the forging flows so that its strongest direction best resists the force that will be induced by use.
So, forged is strongest, cast is second and cut from billet is weakest. Now, in practice with modern methods, it makes NO practical difference. Use what you like.
Y'all be good.
horsefly
It is true that all steels were liquid and poured once, but that doesn't make them equal.
In investment casting, the steel is poured into the mould, freezes and is ready to work. Billet steel is poured and then worked (rolled) into the stock configuration. This rolling makes a grain structure in the stock that sort of resembles the grain in a board of wood. When the material is machined, the "grain" remains.
When material is forged correctly, the grain induced by the forging flows so that its strongest direction best resists the force that will be induced by use.
So, forged is strongest, cast is second and cut from billet is weakest. Now, in practice with modern methods, it makes NO practical difference. Use what you like.
Y'all be good.
horsefly